Is there a price to living in denial?

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No problem - I was feeling quite lucid at the time, though I can't say I've proved any of my ideas. I could be out of date, though inasfar as it's based on my observations of my own psyche, it's current. And given the high speed I've been writing this stuff, be warned it could be flawed. A lot of it only occurs to me as I write it. It's like stimming for me, so I'm grateful when somebody tells me it makes sense.


I'll try. I just meant "how aware the individual was" or "whether they knew what was going on in their head."
So Al Capone might have been thinking "it's true, I was just providing a service" and had no other thought in his head, if he were totally in denial. Or he might have been thinking "I'm a badass really, but these mugs will swallow anything " if he were just lying. Or he might be in the middle and be thinking "it's true what I said" but he's also getting a spooky feeling or an alarm bell, he shrinks from the feeling and demands a large whisky.

I should probably have called it an awareness continuum rather than a spectrum. I believe that honest introspection can bring those partly-visible ideas into full consciousness. Not that I think there's always any need - as long as all's well in my life, my whole brain can chug away behind the scenes without my ever needing to know. If something goes wrong (apart from technical problems) and I can't understand why, introspection might be useful. Typically a counsellor would try to help the client solve a problem by encouraging them to look at the ideas and feelings about that problem. It's not just thoughts that can be fuzzy, it's feelings as well. Even NTs (especially male) have a lot of trouble seeing their own feelings. I don't believe in "the subconscious" as a physical blob in the brain, I just think that every thought and feeling has its own degree of visibility.

Being oblivious is more tragic, I think. At least when people in denial face reality, they've got it coming. When it's a case of oblivion(case in point, a 20-something low-functioning-aspie who has been protected by parents and special schools all his life, who thinks he'll be able to get a sales job), it's really not a pretty sight when reality smacks those individuals in the face.

ToughDiamond, to answer the question in your previous post, I think it's very hard to know how aware or how much in denial a person is about a specific lie. My family, for example, which is what triggered my question on this thread, always claimed that I was evil because I didn't make the effort to have a Theory of Mind and treat others as they like to be treated. To this day I wonder how much of that is denial and how much is actually direct lying, manipulation and scapegoating because it's convenient. I now think that, as you say, even if it indeed were denial - if they had the willingness to see through their denial when reality occasionally raises a little voice in their heads, they would've changed their minds by now. So if they're still not hearing that little voice after almost 50 years, I think I can safely call what they do purposeful lying.

^
I think it was Freud who said that even if the individual's behaviour is unconsciously motivated, they're still responsible for it. I hated that idea when I first saw it - how can anybody take on responsibilty for what they can't even see? - I suppose the answer is that if the individual can't, nobody else can.

50 years is a long time to go without tryng to shine a different light, but some people can be amazingly set in their ways. I've met people who see the very idea of examining feelings as stupid navel gazing mumbo-jumbo, and they don't seem to change one iota. Apparently it's not unusual for an individual to have a belief locked in a "logic-tight compartment" in their mind, where reason cannot corrupt it. I've no idea how they do it, and neither have they, I suspect.

It's not like this is a choice you can make.

Living in denial is impossible if you know you are doing it.

I think sometimes they wake up for a few minutes, but force themselves to go to sleep again. Cowardly choice not to risk the challenge of evolvement.

Do we have a choice? I have found no way of switching off the thoughts that arise, positive as well as negative. Beliefs arise, they are not chosen. I partly envy people who can choose a lie that makes them feel good about themselves. On the other hand, I don't really believe that they can really do that. It must be a fragile illusion just waiting for real life to shatter at first opportunity.

Talking of beliefs, I don't believe this old chestnut any more. There are plenty of people who are not happy with themselves yet manage to find others to appreciate them. What is a suicide other than someone who dislikes themselves more than others do?

One of the foundations of psychology is that unconditional love from parent to child is a vital part of a healthy psyche. The parent has to love the child before the child can love itself.

In reality, cause and effect are intertwined. Each cause is an effect and each effect is a cause. How can you approve of yourself if nobody else approves of you? Our self love is mostly based on the approval we receive from others. All proceeding well, we get a positive feedback loop. However, some people, when young, do not get the approval they need and this turns into a negative feedback loop.

ManErg, I agree. That was an almost "magical belief" of the previous century. I don't think Psychologists use it anymore. It's simply not true, and people have discovered it's not true by now.

One other almost "magical belief" of the previous century that has been dropped: Psychologists used to tell you in the eighties and nineties that you don't need anyone else to be happy. That you can have enough by being your own best friend. They don't say this anymore either. It's obviously not true and people got bored of it.

Eight months later I still wonder...

1. How do people do the denial thing? I'm not able to...

2. Do they pay a price for it?

1. Just like you...they deny it.

2. Yes, via allegations.

Denial is a complex defense mechanism simply offended.
Theory Of Denial, can be make Theory of Mind envious.

www.sleepingelephant.com/denial

I just re-read the whole thread, it has lots of very wise insights. To summarize, I think the price of denial is:

1. Mediocrity - not evolving
2. Self-destruction - needing to engage in actions that divert thought from the truth but are destructive for the person in the long run
3. A huge crisis when something goes wrong and the denial system is shattered

Anything else?

Elephant in living room, or is it the fridge? topic

When painful/unwanted reality stares at those who do not wish to look, three events are possible:

Sometimes reality gets buried, and it is a painful reminder of something a person would rather not face.

Sometimes reality gets hidden, deliberately This may be a misdirected form of protection.

Sometimes reality is manipulated, or ignored, as was mentioned, and this is the most toxic/pathological form of disguise.

A stitch in time saves nine--this is an old adage that applies here as well.

Yes:

Access Denied

Trying to believe something you don't think is true is about the worst sort of cognitive dissonance there is! It will land you in a huge amount of anxiety, probably to the point that it will damage your health. The mind is powerful...

There are other ways to handle unacceptable truths that don't involve denial, of course, and most people will use one of those methods; not all are healthy... You could blame somebody else for whatever it is you don't like; or you could divert your attention to something else, channeling your upset into that thing; you could try to distract yourself by not thinking about the truth (avoidance instead of denial); you could try to re-state the uncomfortable truth in such a way as to fit into your current worldview; you could attempt to prove the uncomfortable thing untrue; you could simply get angry and take your upset out on others... You could try to look at it logically, detaching yourself from your feelings about it; you could laugh about the whole thing, or even at yourself; or you could just decide that the uncomfortable thing, while uncomfortable, isn't all that important after all.