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Are people with autism borderline sociopaths?

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Asp-Z
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06 Mar 2012, 2:14 pm

IMHO (and this really is merely my opinion based on my own research), Aspies and sociopaths are actually very similar. Both seem to learn their way around social situations, it's just that Aspies tend to use the social knowledge they pick up to simply try and fit in whereas a sociopath uses it more to their own advantage. A factor in what likely determines this is the type of empathy you lack: if you lack cognitive empathy but you have emotional empathy, you lean towards the Aspie side, whereas if you lack emotional empathy but you have cognitive empathy, you lean towards the sociopath side. Then again, there are Aspies who have cognitive empathy but little or no emotional empathy, so that's hardly an absolute.

Still, I do believe the conditions are closely linked.



Last edited by Asp-Z on 06 Mar 2012, 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Mar 2012, 2:15 pm

fraac wrote:
I use the same informal definitions as you and clarify this whenever there would be a functional difference. In my example there was none, so what are you confused about?


As I use when? Did I post here recently or something?

I don't even know the formal definitions, this subject is still confusing to me.

Sorry.


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06 Mar 2012, 2:18 pm

What does 'wired similarly' mean?

I agree with Asp-Z, I think there are superficially a lot of similarities. It remains true that the only people I've felt comfortable around were psychopaths or aspies. Psychopaths may need control of the hierarchy but they don't give off a vibe that says it controls them, so they feel quite safe.



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06 Mar 2012, 2:20 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
IMHO (and this really is merely my opinion based on my own research), Aspies and sociopaths are actually very similar. Both seem to learn their way around social situations, it's just that Aspies tend to use the social knowledge they pick up to simply try and fit in whereas a sociopath uses it more to their own advantage. A factor in what likely determines this is the type of empathy you lack: if you lack cognitive empathy but you have emotional empathy, you lean towards the Aspie side, whereas if you lack emotional empathy but you have cognitive empathy, you lean towards the sociopath side. Then again, there are Aspies who have cognitive empathy but little or no emotional empathy, so that's hardly an absolute.

Still, I do believe the conditions are closely linked.


This does make sense. I wondered if I was a sociopath when I was younger because that's just what I associated with most (aside from committing truly heinous acts). I also never manipulated people to an extreme degree or anything like that, but I'm not like the type of Aspies who can't manipulate people because they can't read them. I'm definitely capable of it.

I would say I have emotional empathy along with cognitive empathy since I am NT, but that I'm an NT leaning toward the Aspie side and that both are somewhat impaired.


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06 Mar 2012, 2:24 pm

fraac wrote:
What does 'wired similarly' mean?

I agree with Asp-Z, I think there are superficially a lot of similarities. It remains true that the only people I've felt comfortable around were psychopaths or aspies. Psychopaths may need control of the hierarchy but they don't give off a vibe that says it controls them, so they feel quite safe.


Wired similarly because a sociopath has some of the capabilities that a psychopath doesn't yet still has a similar neurology.

Sociopaths might still be NT but it still takes a person who isn't completely "normal" to become one IMO. It's not like every NT who is exposed to horrible things in life turns out that way.


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Asp-Z
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06 Mar 2012, 2:29 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
IMHO (and this really is merely my opinion based on my own research), Aspies and sociopaths are actually very similar. Both seem to learn their way around social situations, it's just that Aspies tend to use the social knowledge they pick up to simply try and fit in whereas a sociopath uses it more to their own advantage. A factor in what likely determines this is the type of empathy you lack: if you lack cognitive empathy but you have emotional empathy, you lean towards the Aspie side, whereas if you lack emotional empathy but you have cognitive empathy, you lean towards the sociopath side. Then again, there are Aspies who have cognitive empathy but little or no emotional empathy, so that's hardly an absolute.

Still, I do believe the conditions are closely linked.


This does make sense. I wondered if I was a sociopath when I was younger because that's just what I associated with most (aside from committing truly heinous acts). I also never manipulated people to an extreme degree or anything like that, but I'm not like the type of Aspies who can't manipulate people because they can't read them. I'm definitely capable of it.

I would say I have emotional empathy along with cognitive empathy since I am NT, but that I'm an NT leaning toward the Aspie side and that both are somewhat impaired.


I personally am quite good at manipulating people but haven't committed any "heinous acts". I just find it useful to manipulate people at times, it's fun too... Quite frankly, the majority of NTs are sheep and idiots, and many are far too trusting. I have a little emotional empathy for a select few people but that's it.

Technically speaking, you can't be diagnosed with APD ("sociopathy") if you have emotional empathy, even if you only have a little. A true sociopath would have no emotional empathy at all. But again, parts of the conditions link up and I think there are links between Aspies and sociopaths. I also don't think this is a bad thing; a lot of successful people are likely sociopaths.



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06 Mar 2012, 2:30 pm

Hm. It's beyond the point where I'd like to speculate. I know that, of the charming psychopaths I've known, some had entirely fine childhoods. None of them had fathers but that may be coincidence, small sample set.



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06 Mar 2012, 2:34 pm

Anyone know the original name Hans Asperger gave to his syndrome? That's right, autistic psychopathy.



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06 Mar 2012, 2:35 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
IMHO (and this really is merely my opinion based on my own research), Aspies and sociopaths are actually very similar. Both seem to learn their way around social situations, it's just that Aspies tend to use the social knowledge they pick up to simply try and fit in whereas a sociopath uses it more to their own advantage. A factor in what likely determines this is the type of empathy you lack: if you lack cognitive empathy but you have emotional empathy, you lean towards the Aspie side, whereas if you lack emotional empathy but you have cognitive empathy, you lean towards the sociopath side. Then again, there are Aspies who have cognitive empathy but little or no emotional empathy, so that's hardly an absolute.

Still, I do believe the conditions are closely linked.


This does make sense. I wondered if I was a sociopath when I was younger because that's just what I associated with most (aside from committing truly heinous acts). I also never manipulated people to an extreme degree or anything like that, but I'm not like the type of Aspies who can't manipulate people because they can't read them. I'm definitely capable of it.

I would say I have emotional empathy along with cognitive empathy since I am NT, but that I'm an NT leaning toward the Aspie side and that both are somewhat impaired.


I personally am quite good at manipulating people but haven't committed any "heinous acts". I just find it useful to manipulate people at times, it's fun too... Quite frankly, the majority of NTs are sheep and idiots, and many are far too trusting. I have a little emotional empathy for a select few people but that's it.

Technically speaking, you can't be diagnosed with APD ("sociopathy") if you have emotional empathy, even if you only have a little. A true sociopath would have no emotional empathy at all. But again, parts of the conditions link up and I think there are links between Aspies and sociopaths. I also don't think this is a bad thing; a lot of successful people are likely sociopaths.


I definitely wouldn't be diagnosed with APD, or even AS although I'm similar. I also think it's very interesting how similar they are to Aspies. I know I'm just not capable of doing some of the things they're capable of but I'm also not wired to care about people "just because" like you see with many NTs.

This is what makes someone "normal" I suppose but in this respect I think NTs have too much empathy.


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06 Mar 2012, 2:40 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Anyone know the original name Hans Asperger gave to his syndrome? That's right, autistic psychopathy.


Because he was German and psychopathieren means mind condition. You've been told this before.



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06 Mar 2012, 2:42 pm

fraac wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Anyone know the original name Hans Asperger gave to his syndrome? That's right, autistic psychopathy.


Because he was German and psychopathieren means mind condition. You've been told this before.


Yep, but still, the words are the same! :wink:



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06 Mar 2012, 2:45 pm

Haha, not really! ;)



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06 Mar 2012, 2:52 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
fraac wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Anyone know the original name Hans Asperger gave to his syndrome? That's right, autistic psychopathy.


Because he was German and psychopathieren means mind condition. You've been told this before.


Yep, but still, the words are the same! :wink:



Doesn't it mean personality disorder up until 1980...



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06 Mar 2012, 3:07 pm

APD is avoidant personality disorder, and is definately not pyschopathy, which is ASPD.


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06 Mar 2012, 3:11 pm

Psychopathie:

Roots are Greek and it about equates to "soul" or "mind" and "suffer" or "suffering" or "pain".

I don't know Greek so I just went by what German sources say the (Ancient) Greek words mean.



Asp-Z wrote:
I personally am quite good at manipulating people but haven't committed any "heinous acts". I just find it useful to manipulate people at times, it's fun too... Quite frankly, the majority of NTs are sheep and idiots, and many are far too trusting. I have a little emotional empathy for a select few people but that's it.


Isn't calling them sheep and idiots an expression of a noticeable amount of empathy? Or antipathy (which doesn't come without sympathy)? If you really mean it, then calling them sheep expresses something so there can't be nothing.

People aren't intrinsically good or bad, not useful or useless, they're simply nothing but can be everything.


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06 Mar 2012, 3:21 pm

Ganondox wrote:
APD is avoidant personality disorder, and is definately not pyschopathy, which is ASPD.


You're right, I meant ASPD. My bad.

Sora wrote:
Isn't calling them sheep and idiots an expression of a noticeable amount of empathy? Or antipathy (which doesn't come without sympathy)? If you really mean it, then calling them sheep expresses something so there can't be nothing.


Not really, it's just being observant and logical. Most of them have limited intelligence and are plain ignorant and most of them also follow the crowd. Therefore they're stupid sheep.

If I was displaying emotional empathy, I'd say "they may be sheep but they're still kind hearted" or some BS like that (for the record, I believe human nature is essentially utterly horrible).