The Trials of being a Woman with AS

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i have done so. he was way prettier than me!

yes, oh yes! i tried so hard to fit in, and i didn't. dance class and soccer practice was worse.

thank god for my child turning 16!

threee women on this thread so far have said they would date a man in makeup. i think it's time for us to overturn society's prejudices.

but what you call instinct is constantly changing. in some cultures it was the men who got all dolled up to impress women, and the earliest makeup was worn by both men and women. men in other cultures have even traditionally dressed in ways that were pretty uncomfortable.

but it is OUR modern society that insists that women should be strapped, hobbled and painted while men are free to be more comfortable (yes, i have worn suits and ties. they are not all that uncomfortable).

changing it would not be that hard, considering it isn't hardwired at all, but simply a matter of tradition.

And the school run. Turning up at the school gate where everyone was immaculately turned out except us. Daughter would have on odd socks, unbrushed hair (it led to screaming meltdowns), shirt hanging out, bookbag half eaten by the cat and me in my pjamas with my coat over the top wondering how on earth all the other managed.

You're missing the point. Several points actually.

In general, men and women are attracted to, basically, the same qualities in each other that they were in primitive society. Yes, both sexes want someone on the same intelligence level, etc., but men specifically want women who are feminine (i.e. nurturing qualities), whilst women specifically want men who are masculine (i.e. hunting qualities). No, men don't need to hunt anymore, and women don't always nurture, but, subliminally, we're still attracted to those qualities.

Consequently, men must remain masculine and women must remain feminine to some degree, or we would all be sexually frustrated, and the human race would die out. Therefore, we're all 'forced' into our respective gender social roles, which includes clothes. Stifling though these roles can be (especially for masculine women and feminine men), they're a better alternative to an androgynous society of men yearning for feminine women and women pining for masculine men. So, whilst the roles may be exaggerrated at times, the reason behind them is biological. I'm not an expert on every different culture that's ever existed, but it's fair to say that maybe not every little tribe, but every major civilization has had clearly defined masculine and feminine roles for men and women respectively.

As for current clothing: well fashions come and go. But, as I said earlier, men decide what's sexy on a woman and women decide what's sexy on a man. If women really wanted men to wear skirts, heels, make-up, etc., men would, but the vast majority of women are repulsed by men wearing these things. So, yes, you can argue that women are 'forced' by men to wear elaborate clothes, but, likewise, men are 'forced' by women to not wear elaborate clothes, i.e. it might be a pain in the butt for some women to wear all this stuff, but some men (not me personally) would really love to wear heels, make-up, skirts in public, but they can't.

So, as I say, all of us are restricted by these gender social roles, but, on balance, having these roles is better than not having them; for most people anyway.

Haha - well I'll give these women the benefit of the doubt that they're saying what the REALLY believe deep down. But even if they are I'm confident that the vast majority of women in the real world (95%+) - certainly in the UK - would never date a man who wears make-up.

A few points I´d like to make:

1) I WAS physically bullied in school, and it was scary

2) I don´t think I´ve had better luck with relationships than the average AS man. I am well below the level and experience of my NT peers, and most of my adult life has been single. And yes, if an AS woman is too much of a "late bloomer", she loses her chances of having children.

3) Society tends to look down on women who are single, and especially women who are childless. Maybe this is the same for men too.

And one question: why would wearing thongs, push up bras and high heels be something that is etched in our "biology"? Explain that? These are not "natural", our hunter-gatherer cousins didn´t wear these things....those women were more wiry, athletic and muscular, and their bodies were covered with- Omigod- HAIR! Because they didn´t shave it off. So don´t say this is biology, modern humans are so far away from what actually IS natural these days!

And I think I'm going to emphasize that women are included in "society". It is not as if heterosexual men are explicitly setting womens fashion standards...in western society anyway. It is generally the men in the industry, who are largely homosexual, and other women who are setting the standards. They figure out what men find attractive on women and provide it, and the heterosexual men can't be faulted for finding it attractive. I think a lot of them really aren't even consciously aware of what exactly they are finding attractive about a woman. Some of those NT women on the other hand, have it down to a science but with them it is often just as much about looking better than the next woman as it is about looking nice to attract a mate. This is why Saudi women are so into fashion even though they walk around covered all day.

i think that, for the most part, men and women dress a certain way based on the presumption that it is preferred, not based on actual experiences that it is preferred. and we each our children those presumptions long before they could ever be making a choice to attract the opposite sex. it is how society's values are perpetuated - not from the choices we make as adults, but from the gender roles we assign to our children.

and what are we teaching girls? that they must be pretty and dressed up to get a man, and that whatever they want to do in life, they will be taken less seriously if they don't work hard to be attractive to men.

you try to make it cound like women and men are equally at a disadvantage in the way that they must dress a certain way, but i disagree. men don't have pain, discomfort, or physical problems from the clothing society dictates they should wear. i'd say we would be much better offwithout those gender roles.

people in society are largely resistant to change, but that doesn't mean that things must continue unchanged. people can change, and since there is no evoluntionary reason for things to continue this way, change is possible.

Those specific items of clothing aren't etched in our biology, obviously, but masculinity and femininity are, and modern day clothing has been designed to accentuate masculinity and feminity. I might also add a couple of points:

- Men don't expect women to wear uncomfortable clothing most of the time. So this argument that women are constantly uncomfortable is a red herring.

- Men didn't shave in primitive society either, yet most women want men to shave every day, and, possibly, wax their backs (if they're hairy). So it's not a one way street.

Well, I'm willing to admit that I do find certain clothes sexier on a woman than others. I believe this is at least partially biological, i.e. sexy clothes accentuate a woman's most attractive physical features.

I'm not denying it is hard for girls, i.e. pressure to look good. But what's the alternative? Men can't pretend to not find beautiful women attractive. There's also lots of pressures on boys too in different ways, e.g. a boy who's not very good at sports/fighting is a wimp, etc.

As I've already said, women are at a disadvantage in the sense that they're expected to invest more effort in their appearance; true. But then men are at a disadvantage in that they don't get to enjoy dressing up in elaborate ways. Men's clothing is deliberately designed to be dull, and men have to suppress any desire to wear elaborate clothes. Clotheswise, women have the pain and the gain.

Society is changing - for the better, and especially for women. But for biological reasons the sexes will never be 100% equal, and men and women will always have to accept that there are some pros and cons that go with being each sex. It's fair to say that there are some women who love dressing up, being feminine, etc., and would hate the restrictions men have in this regard. If you're a more tomboyish woman (but straight) I guess life's a bit harder.

Oh, because I thought that was what you WERE saying, and that these things are preferred/expected by men....which is what I took offense to, because this is the sort of thing I´ve been reading and hearing about all my life. Now I´m not really sure what you were saying, sorry.....In any case, I´m not constantly uncomfortable, because I make sure to wear clothing that is comfortable to me.

Eddy's great.


I would guess that most women on here don't actually know what most women (or men) think, anymore than you guys do. You're atypical men, we're atypical women, and we do have more in common with each other than with most other people. Over and over that fact keeps getting ignored.

When it comes to really knowing what all or most men/women/people think/feel/do then we are all only guessing, and we all only have our own viewpoints and experiences to go on. And that is also true of most people, since when it comes down to it, generalisations are fine, but they don't tell you how individual people think/feel/behave in individual situations.


Wasn't that one of the points though. Autism is a minority, women on the spectrum are in a small minority, and gender boundaries do seem blurred for people on the spectrum. So perhaps you are portraying issues which genuinely do not bother many people here.


Not African, but we are an odd tribe here, so the focus can only be specific.

Men don't expect it, and granted many women with AS are going to find certain clothing uncomfortable that NT woman wouldn't think anything of (For God's sakes some NT women don't even cut the tags out of their clothes!)

But I think if men actually tried on a complete woman's outfit the most of them would think "How the hell do they wear this all day?" The fact of the matter is, some of those outfits have to be uncomfortable to look that way, and men do like the way they look, which they can't be faulted for of course. One find aesthetically pleasing what they find aesthetically pleasing. I personally just wish that aesthetically pleasing for women to wear didn't have to be tight, itchy, and lacking in functionality.

As for woman's willingness to wear uncomfortable clothes.
On many many occasions:
Me: Isn't that uncomfortable?
My NT sister: Yes.
Me: Then why are you wearing it?
My NT sister: Because it's cute!



And I have to say, my sister's fashion saavy does turn heads.






- Men didn't shave in primitive society either, yet most women want men to shave every day, and, possibly, wax their backs (if they're hairy). So it's not a one way street.[/quote]

If you go back and read all my posts on this thread you'll find I'm making general points about men and women (so predominantly NTs). I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, with respect. So, yeah, I guess me and a few others have diverted the thread from the OPs original subject. In which case I'll shut up now as far as this thread goes. lol