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Naivety and being on the spectrum

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OJani
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30 Nov 2011, 5:26 am

dianthus wrote:
(...) I don't have trouble understanding how people can deliberately lie when there is a specific consequence to be avoided. That makes perfect sense to me.(...)

Even then I find it unpleasant and difficult to lie. I think except for very rare cases I would always confess against myself. I need to be cornered, though.

dianthus wrote:
I never used to think of myself as naive, but I guess I am more naive than I realized.

I even got angry at people who told me I was naive... :?



Sora
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30 Nov 2011, 12:00 pm

MrXxx wrote:
Yeah, everybody does do that, and that's why they teach communications at college level. Sounds like you've studied it a bit. Everybody does it, but the way we (Autistics) do it is a lot different from "everybody." How we do it isn't quite as effective, and sometimes how we do it works dismally. There's huge difference in effectiveness. I agree most of us, Autistic or not, have to learn something about it, but we seem to have to learn a lot more than most.


No, I didn't study it but learnt of this way to put it when I explained the problems I investigated after my ASD diagnosis. I did awful in school and because of this I haven't passed university entrance requirements yet. I really hope to pick up communication as a part of my studies though, it appears to be a very interesting field of study.

As for having to learn more about it than most people, I agree. Few to none of the people my age that I know have ever heard of this. I sometimes can't help but think that a lot of people think communication is simple and works in a magical sort of way for all of humanity.

Back in school several teachers claimed that my answers and interpretations were illogical and incoherent while they agreed that the conclusions I arrived at were just fine. They decided to just ignore or ridicule me for it rather than using that same time on trying to understand some of my communication style or to listen to my explanation of what the words I used meant (to me).

I think that pretty much settled it for me that communication can't possibly go smoothly if just the autistic party is trying hard to bridge the gap to the other party and understand them. Communication definitely requires effort and motivation from all parties involved.


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Tuttle
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30 Nov 2011, 12:15 pm

Sora wrote:

So, for me, this is complex because it is difficult and takes a lot of unnatural reasoning to remember that people are thinking, feeling creatures similar to me with lives similar to mine. I imagine knowing this is really important to come up with questions or morality though.

Because if you forget that people are similar to yourself, you wouldn't try to project your morals or priorities and your idea of "how you as a human person and thus other humans should perhaps feel about some things" onto other people or specifically onto the person that has just lied to you.


To me this is a multiple step thing - within things that make sense to me, its not very difficult for me to think that others don't necessarily think the same as I do. I'm actually one of those who goes out of my way to point that out to NTs who assume that everyone things like them.

However, if its something that doesn't make sense to me, then it doesn't make sense to me even with the fact that others think differently. I can logically know "others think differently, so they might not have this not make sense to them", but I can't come up with any way that it might make sense to them.

So I have no issues with the idea that someone might withhold knowledge, but the concept that someone might in any sort of serious situation give false information doesn't make sense to me even though it happens.



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30 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm

Sparx wrote:
I too easily forget that not everyone is good-hearted and honest; will I ever learn?


It's a lesson I have to keep learning because in between hurts, I keep forgetting.



shadowrunguy
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30 Nov 2011, 1:14 pm

I've definitely experienced naivety at a young age, but it has grown smaller as I became older.



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30 Nov 2011, 3:27 pm

To me, it means the NTs can easily take advantage of people on the spectrum. If someone asked nicely for all your money, an aspie might actually do that. See I sat a meeting with the local aspergers parents group and one parent had that story. We dont recognize dangers nor are we always aware of the "bad" things that go on.

When I was 18, I was sick of being naive so I had a mission to make myself least naive as possible by educating myself on many different things. And I did, Im really not that naive anymore. I was educated by a good number of my friends on things. See my parents were always skeptics about everything so I was well educated about not being taken advantage of.


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30 Nov 2011, 6:31 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Sora wrote:

So, for me, this is complex because it is difficult and takes a lot of unnatural reasoning to remember that people are thinking, feeling creatures similar to me with lives similar to mine. I imagine knowing this is really important to come up with questions or morality though.

Because if you forget that people are similar to yourself, you wouldn't try to project your morals or priorities and your idea of "how you as a human person and thus other humans should perhaps feel about some things" onto other people or specifically onto the person that has just lied to you.


To me this is a multiple step thing - within things that make sense to me, its not very difficult for me to think that others don't necessarily think the same as I do. I'm actually one of those who goes out of my way to point that out to NTs who assume that everyone things like them.

However, if its something that doesn't make sense to me, then it doesn't make sense to me even with the fact that others think differently. I can logically know "others think differently, so they might not have this not make sense to them", but I can't come up with any way that it might make sense to them.

So I have no issues with the idea that someone might withhold knowledge, but the concept that someone might in any sort of serious situation give false information doesn't make sense to me even though it happens.


I might be misunderstanding the exchange here, but I do find it interesting that people sometimes have the assumption that just knowing something is enough to clear a particular cognitive hurdle (I had this assumption too, even though it's even wrong about me). Like knowing that people lie is not the same as understanding that people lie, or being able to apply that information in real time.



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30 Nov 2011, 7:30 pm

The more I think about it, I don't know if I am naive, so much as I am idealistic. I guess a lot of people would say it's the same thing.



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30 Nov 2011, 7:42 pm

Ai_Ling wrote:
To me, it means the NTs can easily take advantage of people on the spectrum. If someone asked nicely for all your money, an aspie might actually do that. See I sat a meeting with the local aspergers parents group and one parent had that story. We dont recognize dangers nor are we always aware of the "bad" things that go on.

When I was 18, I was sick of being naive so I had a mission to make myself least naive as possible by educating myself on many different things. And I did, Im really not that naive anymore. I was educated by a good number of my friends on things. See my parents were always skeptics about everything so I was well educated about not being taken advantage of.


I think this whole "Aspies are so naive" really just drives more people who try scams our way when I've seen people who are not on the spectrum falling for scams all the time.

Think...Nigeria Scam. So is that to say all that fall for it are autistic?

What about all these charity scams that tug on people's emotional strings? Are all the victims autistic?

I personally don't think I am more naive in that area as I tend to question. If someone else who is quick to alarm towards emotional stunts, I am quickly called cold for asking those questions while that person is handing their money away.

Same goes for churches who were caught not doing what they were supposed to with donations. Are all those people who handed their life savings away autistic?

I have a naive look to me as in I look much younger than I am. This sets me up as easy target but those who try learn they had me wrong.

Perhaps this is because of just how many times I've been subjected towards people with ill intentions and I've learned.



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30 Nov 2011, 7:45 pm

dianthus wrote:
The more I think about it, I don't know if I am naive, so much as I am idealistic. I guess a lot of people would say it's the same thing.


If you're aware of it, then you're not naive. However, it's possible you could be aware of it but act/appear naive in practice if you can't recognize it that well in others.



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30 Nov 2011, 7:56 pm

swbluto wrote:
dianthus wrote:
The more I think about it, I don't know if I am naive, so much as I am idealistic. I guess a lot of people would say it's the same thing.


If you're aware of it, then you're not naive. However, it's possible you could be aware of it but act/appear naive in practice if you can't recognize it that well in others.


Do I repeat myself? Very well then, I repeat myself. I am infinite. I contain multitudes.*

Verdandi wrote:
but I do find it interesting that people sometimes have the assumption that just knowing something is enough to clear a particular cognitive hurdle (I had this assumption too, even though it's even wrong about me). Like knowing that people lie is not the same as understanding that people lie, or being able to apply that information in real time.


* Not a Walt Whitman quote, but very close to one



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30 Nov 2011, 8:05 pm

Verdandi wrote:
but I do find it interesting that people sometimes have the assumption that just knowing something is enough to clear a particular cognitive hurdle (I had this assumption too, even though it's even wrong about me). Like knowing that people lie is not the same as understanding that people lie, or being able to apply that information in real time.


Exactly.

Well I have been in situations where I knew well enough that someone was lying to me or trying to manipulate me in some way. Yet I would still assume they must have a good reason for doing so. That's where I am making the distinction between naive and idealistic.



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30 Nov 2011, 8:10 pm

TheygoMew wrote:
What about all these charity scams that tug on people's emotional strings?


I've never been the least bit fooled by that sort of thing. Emotional pleas of any kind don't move me.



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30 Nov 2011, 8:16 pm

TheygoMew wrote:
I think this whole "Aspies are so naive" really just drives more people who try scams our way when I've seen people who are not on the spectrum falling for scams all the time.

Think...Nigeria Scam. So is that to say all that fall for it are autistic?

What about all these charity scams that tug on people's emotional strings? Are all the victims autistic?

Same goes for churches who were caught not doing what they were supposed to with donations. Are all those people who handed their life savings away autistic?


Well that is very true. A lot of NTs give money but I think most NTs wisely give money and they give limited amounts. But its not hard to con an aspie into giving out several 1000s or thats what it seems. Sure you can give to charities but you give wisely like $20 a year or something. Not to say that NTs cant get scammed to, I think it would take more strategy to scam an NT. With aspies, (from what i get) you can just tell them something and they believe it. Im sorry if this sounds belittling but thats what it sounds like when you go to all these parents groups. One of the things they worry about is there children being taken advantaged of. Im just like huh?


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30 Nov 2011, 9:47 pm

Verdandi wrote:
swbluto wrote:
dianthus wrote:
The more I think about it, I don't know if I am naive, so much as I am idealistic. I guess a lot of people would say it's the same thing.


If you're aware of it, then you're not naive. However, it's possible you could be aware of it but act/appear naive in practice if you can't recognize it that well in others.


Do I repeat myself? Very well then, I repeat myself. I am infinite. I contain multitudes.*

Verdandi wrote:
but I do find it interesting that people sometimes have the assumption that just knowing something is enough to clear a particular cognitive hurdle (I had this assumption too, even though it's even wrong about me). Like knowing that people lie is not the same as understanding that people lie, or being able to apply that information in real time.


* Not a Walt Whitman quote, but very close to one


So what? What I posted actually related back to the original intention of determining whether or not something was actually "naive".



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30 Nov 2011, 9:50 pm

swbluto wrote:
So what? What I posted actually related back to the original intention of determining whether or not something was actually "naive".


My point was that being aware that one is naive does not mean that one is no longer naive.

I was aware of it often, but was never quite able to stop being naive. Maybe I'm not so naive now (I don't know, those moments don't seem to happen as often).

The assumption that "if you're aware of X, then you're not X, or should be able to stop doing X" etc. doesn't work well, and that seems to be particularly true of autistic people (although not just autistic people).