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lau
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01 Mar 2007, 11:48 pm

I would guess that http://www.nationmaster.com/ is a a reasonable source of statistics.

The per capita murder rate in the US is three times that in the UK.

The per capita murder with firearms rate in the US is 27 times that in the UK.

You like guns,
you kill each other with them (or anything else that comes handy),
you can keep them,
you'll not convince me they're a good idea.

The US is not the worst place to live. You get shot and killed well over twice as often in South Africa. (Remind me not to move there!)



T-rav20
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02 Mar 2007, 6:09 am

TheMachine1 wrote:
T-rav20 wrote:
TheMachine1 wrote:
Kosmonaut wrote:
faithfully wrote:
Lau wrote:
Oh! And where does that "hate guns, hate freedom" rubbish come from?


History.


eh?


The US was founded by armed conflict. And people largely think that it will take armed conflict to maintain the status quo. That may very well be rubbish but you will have to change the way millions of people think to change that. Logic has very little to do with the situation.


They own firearms for myriad reasons, personal defence, hunting, fun, the enjoyment of owning and maintaining a well built machine, or simply because they're enjoying their natural right to do so.


But those reasons have nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. The purpose of the
second amendment is to permit civilians to defend themselves from a tyrannical government by possession of weapons.
be it foreign or domestic.

No, it doesn't.

Quote:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


What that statement, does not say, speaks volumes, it doesn't say "you will only keep arms for hunting squirrels", or "You will only keep arms to repel tyrannical governments" It says:

Quote:
"the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

That seems rather simple to me.


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T-rav20
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02 Mar 2007, 6:26 am

Lau wrote:
Aspie1 wrote:
I don't agree with hating weapons; they're a Great Equalizer. I saw this little poem on a billboard once. Read and remember.

Violent thugs
Won't dare attack,
If their victim
Might shoot back.


I can see we have three camps here.

1) People who are completely pacifist and will let themselves be exploited mercilessly.
2) People who are non-pacifist, but have strange confidence in the magic of weapons that will somehow be only in their hands and not in the hands of their aggressor.
3) People like me, who wouldn't hurt a fly, normally, but...

Anecdote:

I was going to my cousins funeral, where I was doing some of the organising, so I was carrying quite a bit of cash. We were having trouble finding the funeral parlour, and I had got out to walk around looking for it. This was in a rather un-salubrious part of East London. (That's an understatement)

I was smoking, there was no one else in sight, except for a guy who came up to me and, I forget the exact words he used, but he asked for a cigarette... not politely... more "demanded a fag".

I'm not too quick on the whole "body language" thing - but in this instance it was a bit like "shouting". If I gave him the cigarette, he'd mug me and earn himself about 300 quid.

What he wasn't ready for was me giving him a cigarette, but simultaneously asking him when the funeral parlour was. I exuded all the confidence of my Kung Fu training, even though I hadn't done any for twenty-add years.

He was completely confused, said "How should I know" and walked (almost ran) off.

The thing is, I still feel that confidence. I used to get "sand licked in my face". I learned how I didn't need to put up with it. I have never hurt anyone. The nearest I have come is... another story.


Sounds like you have a problem:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gu ... crime+2007
Also,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kn ... e+UK+crime
So, not only is gun crime no less prevalent, knife crime is increasing...
Hmmmm


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T-rav20
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02 Mar 2007, 6:42 am

This really has nothing to do with autism anymore, (if it ever did) I've opened a new thread:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... 659#484659
Would a Moderator please lock this?


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nutbag
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03 Mar 2007, 12:46 pm

While I abhor aggressive violence, I do so because I abhor aggression. Defense whether violent or not I appluad.

I am a veggie as I cannot wish to harm critters. But I love shooting at various inamimate targets. Marksmanship is one of the few sporty things I am good at.


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RTSgamerFTW
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03 Mar 2007, 12:57 pm

Anyone whos a hippie like the TC is scared.


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Anubis
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03 Mar 2007, 12:58 pm

I love weapons. Anubis does not approve of this thread.


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ascan
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03 Mar 2007, 4:12 pm

Lau wrote:
I would guess that http://www.nationmaster.com/ is a a reasonable source of statistics.

The per capita murder rate in the US is three times that in the UK.

The per capita murder with firearms rate in the US is 27 times that in the UK.

The per capita murder rate in the UK is 1.5 times that of Switzerland, yet guns are legally very much part of society in Switzerland, and many people keep automatic weapons at home. Furthermore, the burglary rate in the UK is twice that of both Switzerland and the US. Perhaps the lower figure in those other countries is linked to home owners having weapons? In fact, if that's the case, and in the UK currently you're around 1000 times more likely to get burgled than murdered, one could, on that basis, argue a good case for legal ownership of firearms. Quality of life as a whole is not greatly affected by even large proportional changes in occurences of very low probability (such as murder), but more by changes in rate of occurence of run-of-the-mill crimes that we all experience during the course of a lifetime: burglary, theft, assault, criminal damage etc.



paolo
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04 Mar 2007, 12:22 am

Switzerland is probably a special case for various reasons. All adult citizen are obliged to keep and know how to use automatic weapons, in the eventuality of periodical war games and of unlikely mobilization orders. They have activities in isolated farms in the countryside and in mountain zones where having arms makes sense, as it makes sense be armed for custody and transportation of values, cash or jewelry. But here is also a tight knit efficient gerdamerie preventing shout outs and acts of self defense. Switzeerland is also one of the richest countries in the world, with little pockets of unrest due poverty, and this explains the low figures in armed robberies. The borders are severely guarded from illegal immigration.



greenblue
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13 Apr 2007, 5:01 pm

I also hate weapons and I feel revulsion and very disturbed by the fact that any civilian can have a fire arm. It's very irresponsible and very stupid for any country to allow anyone to own one. Humanity never learns.



kitsunetsuki
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13 Apr 2007, 5:25 pm

I personally wish all guns and related things would just dissolve into the eather or teleport into the sun . they are noisy smell bad and used in killing.



JonnyBGoode
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13 Apr 2007, 8:36 pm

I wouldn't hurt a fly normally, but...

I don't particularly like firearms. I have nothing against them, I just wouldn't have one in my house, too afraid it might be used against me or I might accidentally shoot myself.

I do have quite a number of swords, though...



Ceryni
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13 Apr 2007, 8:43 pm

I’m probably going to give a different view on this, whilst I’m against cruelty to animals, there’s something strangely exciting about a fight, I’m trained in two martial arts and have fought on a competitive level in one, I do share the revulsion of attacking someone who is helpless.
I do think fights can be a test of skill, strength, agility, reactions, ingenuity and all sorts of other things that I could list here.
I prefer most -disputes- however, to be settled diplomatically, I think that settling something by inflicting physical harm on someone or, on another scale, starting a war (if you have that kind of power) is not good.
Professional fights, such as in boxing or taekwondo can be quite entertaining, and whilst nonetheless painful, are a test of one person’s fighting ability against another.



nutbag
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13 Apr 2007, 9:01 pm

1. I dislike pain. I think there is far too much of it in this world.

2. I am a vegetarian.

3. I dislike agression whether physically violent or not, I wish no one felt any need for agression.

4. I do not dislike defense, to whatever level is required.

5. I understand that aggressive hostile persons and groups of persons exist. I wish they did not.

6. Firearms equilize. With my .357 in my hand I am equal to any thug who would harm me, even though I am partially disabled. No non firearm weapon makes me my attackes equal.

7. Shooting is also a wonderful martial art with all the need for study and practice and commitment and disclipline as any other.

8. My freedoms are protected by men with guns.

9. I see firearms as a thing of beauty.


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paolo
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14 Apr 2007, 2:04 am

Weapons are a way to dilute the responsibility for killing people, are facilitators of homicide. If you had the possibility to kill someone pressing a key of your laptop, you can imagine what would happen.



Iruka
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14 Apr 2007, 2:14 am

I love weapons, at least when they are in my hand or posession. I know as long as a weapon is in my hand nothing bad will be done with it. As long as I have a weapon I am safe. I have learned that everyone and everything, everywhere, at any time is a weapon. But designed weapons are often even more impressive, they tend not to break on things less often (I use lots of weapons for very non-traditional purposes, I've broken a lot of knives.).