Well hell, I'm LFA
I once did a 2-part 'Critical Reasoning' test for an interview.In the first part we had 25 minutes
to answer the questions,which I did comfortably. For the second part there were less questions
and we were told we had 5 minutes to complete it. I looked down and noticed my watch had
stopped.Not only that but there were no clocks anywhere in the room. OMG ! Not surprisingly
my mind went blank and I struggled to answer anything else,so it's definitely the case that
tests can be affected by the slightest levels of undue stress.
I don't think IQ tests etc are really an accurate gauge of intelligence anyway.I've learned more
from the internet and books than I ever learned from official education,which I see as more a
means of indoctrinating people into society's model of what intelligence should be.
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I have lost the will to be apathetic
Danielsmyname: You are super-brainy, as I've stated (& I deeply mean this). But, as an Autist, any given 'standarized' IQ test is designed for a Neurotypical mind - you're not NT. The test doesn't match your neuropathy & I suspect you know this implicity too. If IQ test should matter (such as for your treatment, further diagnostics, etc) I would suggest the RAVEN test - you would positively excel! RAVEN is based upon concepts such as shapes, quantities (as in abstract, like puzzle pieces); perhaps you could ask?
Just for instance: Animal scientists do know (and this is fully accepted as common knowledge) domestic cats are 'as smart as' domestic dogs, overall. However, any dog will beat any cat as far as 'standard' tests, such as following commands (sit. stay. come. and more 'tricks'). Cats cannot follow but they do think (!) and this is KNOWN. Daniel, you're quite like a cat in this way. As is typical for an Autist.
You posted here that sometimes you just 'copy' the words - sure, so does anyone at times. And I think you have the DSM-IV TR memorized, yes? But I know your posts (for quite some time too). You THINK, postulate, formulate, reason, etc. This is not indicative of a MR individual at all - not even close. Understood autism has limited your lifestyle, in terms of functioning, but NOT your intelligence. Quite the contrary.
Below I 'copied & pasted' an article for you from 'Scientific American,' January 2009: Interview. (Really hope I'm not violating any copyright laws & that's not my intent, I promise). Please read. Daniel Tammet is a genius. And he's autistic (& a savant). In many ways Daniel Tammet is in parallel to you, Daniel. Daniel Tammet is disabled in that he doesn't function too well in this world, needing outside help, but his gifts outweigh his difference. Look at what Daniel wrote about intelligence testing, below. And far more. Please read:
Inside the Savant Mind: Tips for Thinking from an Extraordinary Thinker
You may never recite calculations like Rain Man, but you can still learn to improve cognitive performance with advice from this interview with a savant.Daniel Tammet is the author of two books, Born on a Blue Day and Embracing the Wide Sky, which comes out this month. He’s also a linguist and holds the European record for reciting the first 22,514 decimal points of the mathematical constant Pi. Mind Matters editor Jonah Lehrer chats with Tammet about how his memory works, why the IQ test is overrated, and a possible explanation for extraordinary feats of creativity.
LEHRER: Your recent memoir, Born on a Blue Day, documented your life as an autistic savant. You describe, for example, how you are able to quickly learn new languages, and remember scenes from years earlier in cinematic detail. Are you ever surprised by your own abilities?
TAMMET: I have always thought of abstract information—numbers for example—in visual, dynamic form. Numbers assume complex, multi-dimensional shapes in my head that I manipulate to form the solution to sums, or compare when determining whether they are prime or not.
For languages, I do something similar in terms of thinking of words as belonging to clusters of meaning so that each piece of vocabulary makes sense according to its place in my mental architecture for that language. In this way I can easily discern relationships between words, which helps me to remember them.
In my mind, numbers and words are far more than squiggles of ink on a page. They have form, color, texture and so on. They come alive to me, which is why as a young child I thought of them as my “friends.” I think this is why my memory is very deep, because the information is not static. I say in my book that I do not crunch numbers (like a computer). Rather, I dance with them.
None of this is particularly surprising for me. I have always thought in this way so it seems entirely natural. What I do find surprising is that other people do not think in the same way. I find it hard to imagine a world where numbers and words are not how I experience them!
LEHRER: In Embracing the Wide Sky you criticize the IQ test as a vast oversimplification of intelligence. You write: "There is no such thing as proofs of intelligence, only intelligence." Could you explain what you mean by that?
TAMMET: When I was a child, my behavior was far from being what most people would label “intelligent.” It was often limited, repetitive and anti-social. I could not do many of the things that most people take for granted, such as looking someone in the eye or deciphering a person’s body language, and only acquired these skills with much effort over time. I also struggled to learn many of the techniques for spelling or doing sums taught in class because they did not match my own style of thinking.
I know from my own experience that there is much more to “intelligence” than an IQ number. In fact, I hesitate to believe that any system could really reflect the complexity and uniqueness of one person’s mind, or meaningfully describe the nature of his or her potential.
The bell curve distribution for IQ scores tells us that two thirds of the world’s population have an IQ somewhere between 85 and 115. This means that some four and a half billion people around the globe share just 31 numerical values (“He’s a 94,” “You’re a 110,” ”I’m a 103”), equivalent to 150 million people worldwide sharing the same IQ score. This sounds a lot to me like astrology, which lumps everyone into one of twelve signs of the zodiac.
Even if we cannot measure and assign precise values to it in any “scientific” way, I do very much think that “intelligence” exists and that it varies in the actions of each person. The concept is a useful and important one, for scientists and educators alike. My objection is to thinking that any ‘test’ of a person’s intelligence is up to the task. Rather we should focus on ensuring that the fundamentals (literacy, etc.) are well taught, and that each child’s diverse talents are encouraged and nourished.
LEHRER: You also describe some recent scientific studies on what happens inside the brain when we learn a second language. Do you think this recent research should change the way we teach languages?
TAMMET: Thanks to the advances in modern scanning technology we know more today than ever before just how what’s happening inside the brain when we’re learning a language. That we can speak at all is nothing less than an astonishing cognitive achievement.
Learning a second language, particularly when that language is not one that the person has to use on a regular basis, is an extremely difficult task. I think it is a mistake to underestimate the challenges of it. Students should be aware that the difficulties they will face are inherent in what they are doing, and not any failing on their part.
One of the most interesting scientific discoveries about how language works (and how it could be taught) is “phonaesthesia”—that certain sounds have a meaningful relationship to the things they describe. For example, in many languages the vowel sound “i” is associated with smallness—little, tiny, petit, niño, and so on—whereas the sound “a” or “o” is associated with largeness—grand, gross, gordo, etc. Such links have been found in many of the world’s languages. These findings strongly imply that learners would benefit from learning to draw on their own natural intuitions to help them understand and remember many of the foreign words that they come across.
Another finding, by cognitive psychologists Lera Boroditsky, Lauren A. Schmidt, and Webb Phillips, might also offer a useful insight into an important part of learning a second language. The researchers asked German and Spanish native speakers to think of adjectives to describe a range of objects, such as a key. The German speakers, for whom the word “key” is masculine, gave adjectives such as “hard,” “heavy,” “jagged,” and “metal,” whereas the Spanish speakers, for whom “key” is feminine, gave responses like : “golden,” “little,” ”lovely” and “shiny.” This result suggests that native speakers of languages that have gendered nouns remember the different categorization for each by attending to differing characteristics, depending on whether the noun is “male” or ”female.” It is plausible that second-language learners could learn to perceive various nouns in a similar way to help them remember the correct gender.
Regardless of how exactly a person learns a second language, we do know for sure that it is very good for your brain. There is good evidence that language learning helps individuals to abstract information, focus attention, and may even help ward off age-related declines in mental performance.
LEHRER: You advocate a theory of creativity defined by a cognitive property you call "hyper-connectivity." Could you explain?
TAMMET: I am unusually creative—from visualizing numerical landscapes composed of random strings of digits to the invention of my own words and concepts in numerous languages. Where does this creativity come from?
My brain has developed a little differently from most other people’s. Aside from my high-functioning autism, I also suffered from epileptic seizures as a young child. In my book, I propose a link between my brain’s functioning and my creative abilities based on the property of ‘hyper-connectivity’.
In most people, the brain’s major functions are performed separately and not allowed to interfere with one another. Scientists have found that in some brain disorders however, including autism and epilepsy, cross-communication can occur between normally distinct brain regions. My theory is that rare forms of creative imagination are the result of an extraordinary convergence of normally disconnected thoughts, memories, feelings and ideas. Indeed, such “hyper-connectivity” within the brain may well lie at the heart of all forms of exceptional creativity.
LEHRER: How were you able to recite from memory the first 22,514 numbers of Pi? And do you have advice for people looking to improve their own memory?
TAMMET: As I have already mentioned, numbers to me have their own shapes, colors and textures. Various studies have long demonstrated that being able to visualize information makes it easier to remember. In addition, my number shapes are semantically meaningful, which is to say that I am able to visualize their relationship to other numbers. A simple example would be the number 37, which is lumpy like oatmeal, and 111 which is similarly lumpy but also round like the number three (being 37 x 3). Where you might see an endless string of random digits when looking at the decimals of Pi, my mind is able to “chunk” groups of these numbers spontaneously into meaningful visual images that constitute their own hierarchy of associations.
Using your imagination is one very good way to improve your own memory. For example, actors who have to remember hundreds or even thousands of lines of a script do so by actively analysing them and imagining the motivations and goals of their characters. Many also imagine having to explain the meaning of their lines to another person, which has been shown to significantly improve their subsequent recall.
Here is another tip from my book. Researchers have found that you are more likely to remember something if the place or situation in which you are trying to recall the information bears some resemblance—color or smell, for example—to where you originally learned it. A greater awareness therefore of the context in which we acquire a particular piece of information can help improve our ability to remember it later on.
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The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown
LabPet, Electric_Kite, Ntstanch, millie, dougn, et alli
Good posts (everyone has offered good thoughts that are worth pondering over; even though I only skim a small amount of each, I get the gist of it), thanks for the words.
But anyway, much like I figured on another thread I started awhile ago (which I forgot about till now), I just have Autism, like many people here. I relate to people with Asperger's, those with HFA/LFA, and those with PDD-NOS. Sure, I may be more severe than some people in some areas, but to use my father as an example (he has AS), he's worst than me in other areas.
Good posts (everyone has offered good thoughts that are worth pondering over; even though I only skim a small amount of each, I get the gist of it), thanks for the words.
But anyway, much like I figured on another thread I started awhile ago (which I forgot about till now), I just have Autism, like many people here. I relate to people with Asperger's, those with HFA/LFA, and those with PDD-NOS. Sure, I may be more severe than some people in some areas, but to use my father as an example (he has AS), he's worst than me in other areas.
i agree.
there seems to be so much invested in IQ tests and as LabPet eloquently points out, they are in fact designed for minds that are somewhat different to ours.
I was talking to my psychologist who is with Minds and Hearts (Attwood's clinic) yesterday - about the troughs and spikes we have in terms of interest areas and mental functioning.
I do some amazingly diffiuclt things with absolute ease - things other people find so impossible, and yet i try to do a load of washing and i wash it and then it stays damp in the machine for 3 days. A trip to the shops to buy items is very difficult for me. i suck at maths. i can do basic addition, multiplication and subtraction and that is it. and yet i excel in other areas.
I remember when i first came to WP some months ago and i read some stuff Callista had written on IQ tests - questioning their validity in relation to the autistic mind - and i had to agree.
I read what LabPet says here and i agree wholeheartedly that they are tests designed for a different type of mind.
it really means so little. IQ of 70, 90, 120, 150 blah blah blah....
i would love it if theIQ did not exist.
SOme of the best brains i've ever come across - brains that have really made me think and brains that have really stretched me - have come from supposed 'low IQ" people on WP.
That is however absolutely atypical.
For those without autism and LD and MR, their IQ score does usually - in about 90% of all cases - tell a lot about their abilities and limits. Such as not being able to comprehend and calculate with numbers beyond 1000, beyond 100, reading short texts...
No, they don't usually go to university. They don't even go into sixth form unless their intelligence and IQ do not correlate for such reason as being autistic.
They might not even be able to stick to the appropriate formal form of address. (Good thing it's 'you' anyway in English.)
That might be where the autism comes in.
So if a person with autism tests for borderline MR and goes to university and writes countless somewhat scientific articles and several books, then their IQ score doesn't correlate with their abilities - which ultimately means the testing that applies to the non-autistic norm does not apply to them.
It does however apply to those without, say, autism. Or without any other weird neurological oddities.
Which does point to that you absolutely cannot compare a person with an IQ of 60 with an autistic person with an IQ of 60. No. I mean, would be cool, but it's just not like that with non-autistic people with mild MR for example.
If that was true - a person with mild or borderline MR being able to do better than average academically, then I do very much wonder about all those adults and children with MR who struggle hard and only do a quarter or a half of normality.
No secret hidden super abilities that turn them somewhat close to normal for the simply mentally ret*d person.
Which I think is perfectly fine, because how far you go in school or not or how appropriate you can converse socially don't tell how compassionate and intelligent (by a different definition than IQ) a person is even if they do not have autism.
Autism might make IQ and IQ testing different, but the concept applies appropriately to the non-autistic norm in the majority of cases.
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Autism + ADHD
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett
Sora,
It's "atypical" for people with AS to complete higher education, and most with such have a normal IQ (sure, there's a greater chance of them completing higher education, but it's still way below the normal population).
If her IQ is fragmented, which I'm betting it is, her strengths in certain areas would get her through. MR in Autism is usually different than standard MR due to strengths and weaknesses; standard MR is all "weaknesses".
Usually, verbal skills tend to be way down, but performance can be normal, or even high (like in my case). But, the opposite is possible too.
O, and something funny: I scored 124 on the online "high IQ society's" test just before.
O again, and millie, I used to go to Minds & Hearts at West End; I stopped going because I didn't like having to drive into the city (well, my mother was the one who drove me), and West End is quite alien to me. I saw Julie Fox before she left, and then Louise Ford.
Ah, yes, of course, that's an explanation. The uneven profile thing.
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Autism + ADHD
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett
An update (for myself, really):
My psychiatrist said that said IQ test was "crap", and that he's seen it many times with people who have Autism. Overwhelmed and overloaded will equate to a very low score.
I suppose I'm back to "HFA", as my previous IQ score was "high" when I wasn't stressed, overwhelmed and overloaded.
Actually it's the opposite case for those with Asperger's. Many children with AS are said to be "little professors". In the 6th grade, my academic skills were formally tested; the test found that I was capable of reading and writing at the level of a college sophomore.
My psychiatrist said that said IQ test was "crap", and that he's seen it many times with people who have Autism. Overwhelmed and overloaded will equate to a very low score.
I suppose I'm back to "HFA", as my previous IQ score was "high" when I wasn't stressed, overwhelmed and overloaded.
i saw this post awhile back never got a chance to say anything, glad to see that you realize ur IQ isnt really 59, u are no way have the iq of 59, i'm around kids all the time with iqs from 60 to wayyy low, who cant even figure out how to type one word, even being attempted to be taught for many many many many years. Anyways welcome back to HF hehehe. Last IQ i took said was on the line of average and below average, i consider myself average hehe.
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Being Normal Is Vastly Overrated

I remember when I took my IQ test I was stressed out (anxiety from boyfriend, study).
I also was in great need of glasses, but at that time I didn't have them so my eyes were stinging so much that I read things blurry. I thought I was dyslexic. I still think I am, because my glasses only take the strain off. I still find myself writing things the wrong way.
My mother also yelled at me in my break from the test and that changed my performance.
I still ended up with an IQ of over 90. I think those visual questions saved me.
Oh and the test was read to me by my psychologist, and I'm not a verbal person. It would have been better if I could have read through it myself.
But yeah I was stressed as f*** and I think that impacted on my score.
Glad to hear that you're in the HFA range now.
Whilst I forgot to mention it to him; I always forget to say things I thought of saying beforehand, but that's beside the point (I'm sure he'd agree), it's a decent predictor of how my functioning just drops in the face of social environments, and what they bring. Overall, it was worth getting it done, for that reason; I know I'll never be able to go to college and pass in the face of being around all of the people, but I do know that I have the mental ability to do such from home, and for that I'm glad.
dougn, pensieve [and everyone else], thanks for the comments.
I'm assuming that such a low score was due to being overwhelmed with the external environment (sensory bombardment from the waiting room, the car ride, etcetera), as I've had a "high IQ" in the last official one I took as a child (I wasn't as overwhelmed then, but I can't really remember such), but then, perhaps I peaked at that age and I was above many of my peers at the time, and they developed whereas I stopped.
*Shrug*
I would have to agree with the other posters on the thread. You are extremely verbose and quite an intelligent man. Obviously, that test was inaccurate in gauging your true abilities. You're the furthest thing from mentally ret*d.
dougn, pensieve [and everyone else], thanks for the comments.
Daniel,
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're wanting to go back to school? If so, good for you, and what are you thinking about majoring in? If this was addressed earlier in the thread, sorry for chiming in late, but at the moment I am non-caffeinated and I have a cat trying to eat my keyboard.
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"Give me a long enough lever and a place to stand and I will move the earth"-Archimedes
"We will find a way or make one."-Hannibal
"Perception is reality - which is why I try really hard to see the good in things."-Me

