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What are 'NTs'?

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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19 Aug 2009, 9:19 am

Tantybi wrote:
I was under the impression that subjective reasoning was an NT thing more so than an Aspie thing... :lol: :roll:

Ironically, suggesting subjective reasoning is an NT thing more than an Aspie one could also be subjective reasoning



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19 Aug 2009, 11:04 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Tantybi wrote:
I was under the impression that subjective reasoning was an NT thing more so than an Aspie thing... :lol: :roll:

Ironically, suggesting subjective reasoning is an NT thing more than an Aspie one could also be subjective reasoning


That was the point. That's why it was a LOL. I think I shouldn't have chosen the rolled eyes thing, but it seemed so circular like the reasoning I just used.


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20 Aug 2009, 8:58 am

I seems we have got no further in defining the elusive creature known by it's temporary designation as "Neurotypical".

What traits in "NTs" do people have a problem with? I can think of one: rigid adherence to non-functional routines or rituals 8) Oops, that's part of the Aspergers diagnosis. I honestly didn't realise that when I began writing. Maybe I should rephrase it as: rigid adherence to a set of social rules, or something of that nature.



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20 Aug 2009, 10:46 am

Magneto wrote:
I seems we have got no further in defining the elusive creature known by it's temporary designation as "Neurotypical".

What traits in "NTs" do people have a problem with? I can think of one: rigid adherence to non-functional routines or rituals 8) Oops, that's part of the Aspergers diagnosis. I honestly didn't realise that when I began writing. Maybe I should rephrase it as: rigid adherence to a set of social rules, or something of that nature.

The way I understand it is that "neurotypical" means that the person does not fall into a category of folks who have a generally recognized neurological condition. So really it just means "everybody else." So you really can't really generalize about tendencies of someone NT. That's sort of like generalizing about someone with PDD-NOS.

Being NT generally implies that the person is completely capable of interpreting and understanding non-verbal communication. His/her actions and behaviors based on this information is another matter completely. I suppose you could argue that someone who is NT, being that they are more capable in this regard, is more likely to follow standard social conventions since his/her understanding of them comes more naturally... but it is not a requirement for him/her to do so.


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20 Aug 2009, 1:51 pm

FiddlerPianist wrote:
Being NT generally implies that the person is completely capable of interpreting and understanding non-verbal communication.


There is no uniform understanding of NVC, it's mainly how an individual intreprets it and the NVC from the other person is entirely dependent upon their individual personality and quirks and such. Social constructs such as the "mask", "social games" and the such just confound the issue further, the personal subjective take on a social situation is dependent upon the individual, if you think there is a uniform understanding I suggest you go outside and watch the "NTs" bicker, squabble, misunderstand and argue with each other, "NTs" do not run smoothly anymore then ourselves. There is no difference between "them and us", both "NTs" and AS/Autistics are individuals with individual takes and personalities, neither "NTs" nor AS/Autistics can read others minds, we can only make theories that are dependent upon numerous variables.


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20 Aug 2009, 2:37 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
FiddlerPianist wrote:
Being NT generally implies that the person is completely capable of interpreting and understanding non-verbal communication.


There is no uniform understanding of NVC, it's mainly how an individual intreprets it and the NVC from the other person is entirely dependent upon their individual personality and quirks and such. Social constructs such as the "mask", "social games" and the such just confound the issue further, the personal subjective take on a social situation is dependent upon the individual, if you think there is a uniform understanding I suggest you go outside and watch the "NTs" bicker, squabble, misunderstand and argue with each other, "NTs" do not run smoothly anymore then ourselves.

I'm simply stating that those who are more NT are more likely to pick up on non-verbal communication and understand its intent. I never meant to imply that the NT world runs smoothly. You made a leap of logic there.

Demon-Chorus wrote:
There is no difference between "them and us", both "NTs" and AS/Autistics are individuals with individual takes and personalities, neither "NTs" nor AS/Autistics can read others minds, we can only make theories that are dependent upon numerous variables.

We all have different personalities. The only difference I am talking about here is capability. One's capabilities are very different from one's personalities.


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20 Aug 2009, 6:29 pm

Magneto wrote:
I seems we have got no further in defining the elusive creature known by it's temporary designation as "Neurotypical".

What traits in "NTs" do people have a problem with? I can think of one: rigid adherence to non-functional routines or rituals 8) Oops, that's part of the Aspergers diagnosis. I honestly didn't realise that when I began writing. Maybe I should rephrase it as: rigid adherence to a set of social rules, or something of that nature.

There's a few things I don't like about NT behaviour. When I hung out with NTs these are what drove me crazy. Lets say one of the NTs doesn't like someone for some reason. She would try to get me to dislike that person with the same intensity just because she didn't like him or her. Sometimes it was someone I only met maybe two times, someone who did absolutely nothing to me, personally. That really drove me crazy and just about every NT I've ever gotten to know does this. My thoughts were why not let me decide if I like this person on my own without trying to get me to hate them?
Another thing: divide and conquer. An NT has two friends that get along just fine and like being together. The NT can't stand it and decides to connive and think of ways to split the two friends up. It's happened to me countless times and yes it's despicable behaviour that I won't tolerate.
Most NTs I have know try to get people who are friends to start hating each other for some reason which is one of the reasons I don't really like them.
NT in my case means people I have know without any ASD diagnosis that I knew about.



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20 Aug 2009, 9:43 pm

FiddlerPianist wrote:
I'm simply stating that those who are more NT are more likely to pick up on non-verbal communication and understand its intent.


The intent means nothing if the intent is misread.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
I never meant to imply that the NT world runs smoothly.


Sorry, I drone on and I wasn't implying you said anything, I get the implications from some "NTs" and Aspies/Autistics from this site that they believe the "NT" way of doing things is smooth when it's not and I drone on.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
You made a leap of logic there.


Actually I didn't, I just drone on and what I droned on about was completely correct. I thought we autistics didn't understand context, insinuation and implication? If we didn't we wouldn't be reading into context even if it's a misunderstanding and the context isn't there like you did just now and many ASers/Autistics do all the time.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
We all have different personalities. The only difference I am talking about here is capability. One's capabilities are very different from one's personalities.


Do we really lack the capability? I most certainly don't, I understand voice inflection, facial expression, body lanuage, context, insinuation and implication just fine, of course I can only speak for myself, but seeing the accusations and other stuff it seems we autistics understand the concept of insinuation and context just fine, even if it's a misunderstanding based on a wild assumption, "NTs" do that crap all the time. So pray tell what capabilities do you lack in the social area?


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20 Aug 2009, 10:41 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Most NTs I have know try to get people who are friends to start hating each other for some reason which is one of the reasons I don't really like them.
NT in my case means people I have know without any ASD diagnosis that I knew about.

To a certain degree it is human nature to form factions, if that is what you are talking about... coalitions of one group against another group. That's simply group dynamics. You'd be surprised, however, to learn that many with AS also do this. They might express it a bit differently, but it's still there.


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20 Aug 2009, 10:47 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
FiddlerPianist wrote:
I'm simply stating that those who are more NT are more likely to pick up on non-verbal communication and understand its intent.

The intent means nothing if the intent is misread.

True. I consider what I say to be fairly easy to follow, but it's quite possible that I am wrong. I am sorry you are misreading my intent.

Demon-Chorus wrote:
FiddlerPianist wrote:
We all have different personalities. The only difference I am talking about here is capability. One's capabilities are very different from one's personalities.


Do we really lack the capability? I most certainly don't, I understand voice inflection, facial expression, body lanuage, context, insinuation and implication just fine, of course I can only speak for myself, but seeing the accusations and other stuff it seems we autistics understand the concept of insinuation and context just fine, even if it's a misunderstanding based on a wild assumption, "NTs" do that crap all the time. So pray tell what capabilities do you lack in the social area?

Understanding something conceptually is very different from being able to apply it successfully in the real world. For instance, I understand that one can lead another on about something wildly untrue, and there will be subtle non-verbal hints that indicate that they are leading the other person on. I know that this can happen conceptually, yet I am usually very bad at knowing when I am the victim of such an encounter.


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20 Aug 2009, 10:50 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Most NTs I have know try to get people who are friends to start hating each other for some reason which is one of the reasons I don't really like them.
NT in my case means people I have know without any ASD diagnosis that I knew about.

To a certain degree it is human nature to form factions, if that is what you are talking about... coalitions of one group against another group. That's simply group dynamics. You'd be surprised, however, to learn that many with AS also do this. They might express it a bit differently, but it's still there.

I am not talking about groups...like football teams having a rivalry or gangs having a showdown. Let's say you have three friends and one of them wants you to hate the other one so everytime you talk to the one they bad mouth the other in a vain attempt to encite you. Or what if you just have one friend and everytime you talk to him or her they start going on and on about someone you only met once or worse never met at all. It's annoying.



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20 Aug 2009, 11:00 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Most NTs I have know try to get people who are friends to start hating each other for some reason which is one of the reasons I don't really like them.
NT in my case means people I have know without any ASD diagnosis that I knew about.

To a certain degree it is human nature to form factions, if that is what you are talking about... coalitions of one group against another group. That's simply group dynamics. You'd be surprised, however, to learn that many with AS also do this. They might express it a bit differently, but it's still there.

I am not talking about groups...like football teams having a rivalry or gangs having a showdown. Let's say you have three friends and one of them wants you to hate the other one so everytime you talk to the one they bad mouth the other in a vain attempt to encite you. Or what if you just have one friend and everytime you talk to him or her they start going on and on about someone you only met once or worse never met at all. It's annoying.

Even if it's one person, it's an attempt to coalesce against the other person with you. That's a group.


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20 Aug 2009, 11:09 pm

To me it's not really a "group" unless it's more than three people :)



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20 Aug 2009, 11:17 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
To me it's not really a "group" unless it's more than three people :)

Regardless, it's group dynamics.


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20 Aug 2009, 11:57 pm

Yes you two are talking group dynamics, even if it is a very small group. However, I can see where Ana is coming from. What she is talking about might be capable by anyone, but it doesn't seem popular in the Aspie world. I've seen people get banned from this site for trying it, and no other forum does that.


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21 Aug 2009, 12:04 am

FiddlerPianist wrote:
True. I consider what I say to be fairly easy to follow, but it's quite possible that I am wrong.


I consider myself pretty easy to follow as well, I think my line of logic is pretty easy to understand and I don't consider my train of thought needlessly convuluted, but I have a habit of prattling on and demonstrating a huge point of argument. Also it's quite possible I'm wrong as well, I'm just as human as you are and nobody is perfect.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
I am sorry you are misreading my intent.


Why are you sorry? I wasn't talking about your intent, I was refering to "NT vs NT" social situational intent reading and the chronic blunders of the so-called "social reading skills" of "NTs". I'm just extremely skeptical that "NTs" uniformly posess some eerie NVC skills when all I've seen throughout my life is individual "NT" takes on social situations and blunders by those who like to pretend they're NVC skills are "uber". NVC skills exist but they can't be used to assertain something without a shadow of doubt especially in the first stages of meeting a person, due to human error and individuality.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
Understanding something conceptually is very different from being able to apply it successfully in the real world.


True, my NVC skills are not perfect either, but I've never met an NT with perfect NVC skills either.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
For instance, I understand that one can lead another on about something wildly untrue, and there will be subtle non-verbal hints that indicate that they are leading the other person on. I know that this can happen conceptually, yet I am usually very bad at knowing when I am the victim of such an encounter.


I've been made a sucker of too, this really isn't a NT vs AS/Autistic thing, NTs get made suckers as well all the time, some "NTs" just like to pretend they have "creep-dar". The type of people who pull that crap are just really good at it and "NTness" doesn't save people from them.


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