Son yells "shut up" when I try to ask him somethi

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Your choice when stressed was to go to the guidance office & get help. That was the appropriate thing to do and yes, I would excuse, understand and even applaud that.

His choice when stressed was to smash a hole in the wall & to tell his mom he'd like to kill her. That is unacceptable and inexcusable.

Last edited by granatelli on 23 Sep 2009, 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

What's the freakin difference? "Consequence" and "Punish" are pretty much synonymous

I don't think you're correct if you're implying that his anger is feigned and that he's using it to manipulate. That's not a typical aspie pattern at all. Punching holes in the wall doesn't come from being a "jerk". Sounds more like his emotions are out of control.

The question is whether or not he can be provided with choices that would be more appropriate. If he has no way out of a situation that overwhelms him, he doesn't make a choice at all.
Imagine that I hadn't had a teacher who could help me not to get into trouble for going to the guidance office and getting help. If I'd been suspended from school for getting help when I was having a meltdown, what might have happened if another similar situation had occurred?

If the kid can be provided with options, things he can do to get out of situations that overwhelm him, then maybe he won't feel so out of control that he hits a wall or makes threats. Punching a hole in a wall is the kind of thing that usually happens when somebody is in way over their head. It's an explosion of emotion when someone has too much inside them to contain; it's not usually purposeful, or if it is purposeful, the purpose is to harm something inanimate in order to get out aggression. I had one therapist who recommended buying cheap plates at yard sales and smashing them on the driveway. When someone feels like they're going to explode, "just staying calm" is usually not a reasonable option. He needs to have alternatives that are actually possible. That's why we have things like anger management classes and punching bags; holding your feelings in isn't always an option. And when holding it in isn't an option, there need to be appropriate outlets. If pekkla's son does have appropriate options that he's not utilizing, then yes, he needs consequences for his behavior. If he doesn't have any reasonable options, then he needs some, or punishing him won't be the consequence of a choice that he made, it'll just be another torment. Something is only a "consequence" when it's actually the result of a choice. Could he go punch a punching bag rather than punching a hole in the wall? Or did he do the least destructive thing he could think of a moment in time when he wasn't actually capable of thinking clearly? If holding in one's feelings no matter what were completely possible, there would be no need for punching bags.

A consequence is the result of a choice.


Exactly. If it's out of control emotions, he's not making a choice to do something, he's trying to hold on as best he can, maybe trying to do the least destructive thing possible. Yelling or punching a hole in a wall when you feel like you're going to explode can seem like the most reasonable option. A consequence doesn't have any meaning unless it's the result of a choice, rather than something that feels completely out of control. You need options before consequences are relevant.

Oh, I think his anger is real alright. He's having a temper tantrum/meltdown because he doesn't want to stop playing on the computer. What I'm saying is that he's learning that if he throws a *hit fit he'll get his mom to leave him alone so that he can do whatever he wants. Many aspies here have said that they were not above using manipulation and their AS to get what they wanted when they were younger.

He has an option. He can listen to his mother and turn off his computer in a timely manner and go to bed or.......his mother will have to turn his computer off for him.

Why is that so difficult? You act like he has been given the choice to either jump off a cliff or light himself on fire. He has an option. His mothers request was reasonable, not only reasonable, but it is her duty as a parent to guide him and give him rules and boundries.

You don't have enough information to claim that this is manipulation and not just extreme frustration. If it's extreme frustration he's not "learning" anything. He's just reacting.

This is normal 13 yr old behavior from what I saw raising my two children that are living.
My other daughter died at age 9 and never got to this point.
Discipline is called for - but not worry over these reactions.
I have Aspergers and ended up rasing the kids alone after my marriage to their father was over.
Both my living children are eccentric but not like me, and they both turned into little monsters at this age.
Unfortunately my daughter, now 19, is still the same way and out of the age where I can discipline her - since she lives at college - where my son at 16 has made vast improvement but I have read and been told by councilors that this is typical - the child of the same sex parent takes longer to re-establish a good relationship.
It appears to be part of the process that allows children to separate themselves form their parents and live on their own BUT you dont have to put up with being disrespected - and when mine behaved that way I removed said video game immediately until they understood that speaking to me in this way would result in a loss of priveliges!
My daughter's room was as bare as a cell during her teens off and on but if you do not get a grip on it you can expect worse!
My sister never disciplines her boys for this behavior and they are horrible monsters at 14 and 13 and are in total control of her house.
When my nephews come to MY house and act like this they are punished, which they resent but I dont allow this in my home.
(And neither should you)
Dont make the same mistake so many parents make and excuse him for disrespecting you by blaming it on his Aspergers.
I have it and my mother used physical discipline when we displayed the same behavior until we got the message that if you cant say something nice you WILL say nothing at all - or else.
Believe me, he is capable of curbing those remarks but if you dont MAKE him stop it you arent doing him any favors because one day he will have to live in the real world and SOME control of himself is NESSESARY or he WILL fail in the world.

Just because we're not neuro-typical dosent mean you dont have to get through to us - it just takes more time.

Hang in there!

Um, have you not seen anything about the difference between a meltdown and a temper tantrum? You're not seriously suggesting that they're the same thing, are you?? A meltdown isn't about getting your way. It's about exploding, not having a choice.


Exactly. If he has some kind of choice, it might be possible to determine that. But frustration can get to a point where there's not choice. Not everyone can just suppress their feelings. If they could, there'd be no need for ways to outlet extreme frustration. If you've never been in that place where you just can't keep control, where you want to, but you can't, I guess you just can't know.
How about if you got food poisoning and I told you to just keep all your food down, don't you dare throw up, and if you do, there will be consequences? Sometimes it comes back up anyway, and there's not a freaking thing you can do to stop it besides get your head into a toilet or a bag so you don't get it all over the place. If emotions could simply be kept down, we wouldn't have thousands of years of fighting and war and killing each other behind us. It's not a matter of simply controlling yourself any more than not throwing up if you've got food poisoning is a matter of simply controlling yourself. There needs to be an outlet. If you've got food poisoning, your options are to throw up all over the place, or find a decent container to throw up in.
If you're on an airplane, and you're getting sick, and there's not an airsickness bag, and you ask the person next to you to please let you get by them to get to the bathroom to puke, and they tell you you don't need to go to the bathroom, you just need to control yourself, what are you going to do? Can you simply force your body not to be sick??

If the kid just wants to play video games, then giving him a punching bag to take out his frustration on won't give him his way. If he's overwhelmed and needs a way to take out his frustration, then it could help him stay in control.
Punishing somebody for exploding when they didn't have any way of containing themselves is like punishing somebody for getting sick. It's not consequences of a choice, it's just a punishment. It doesn't teach them to control themselves any more than punishing you for getting sick would teach you not to get sick.

We're going to just have to agree to disagree. I bet you'd feel much different about this kids behavior if you had to live with him. It's one thing to talk about behaviors as if you were reading about it in a book. It's another if your standing next to the wall when he puts his fist into it.

Bravo Maggie! One of the best posts ever!! You are persuasive and determined. Your metaphor is perfect. Thank you. The entire ASD community should be thanking you for saying so brilliantly, so articulately what has NEEDED to be said for the last 20 years.

Obviously granatelli is in perfect control over all his bodily functions and could prevent himself from vomiting if he had food poisoning, though. This is exactly how people end up in horrid situations.. people who think that they can punish somebody for things they had no control over. Would love to see granatelli on an airplane isle seat next to somebody puking their guts out, telling them that it's all their fault they're sick and that they should just control themselves.
Or is he just trying to be difficult at this point?

Not sure granatelli can walk in our moccasins.

IMO it is a huge disservice to the AS community to insist that people with AS cannot control their behavior and that they should not be held accountable for the things they do and the way that they treat other people. Do you really want to go there? Come on. They have places for people that cannot control the way they treat other members of society and I don't believe that you'd want most people with AS to end up in there.

I completely understand that someone with AS has no control over the overwhelming feelings that rush over them because of their AS. I get that. But it's what they do with those feelings that will determine whether they end up being a productive, self sustaining member of society or if they end up in prison.

What I'm saying is that IMO you need to give the AS community more credit than you do. Frankly, I would find it insulting to be told that I wouldn't be held accountable for my actions because I had AS & I couldn't help it. It's as if you are talking about a child that needs to be excused and have it's hand held at all times. Really, I would find that degrading.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

How is providing a child with options for things to do when they get overwhelmed, rather than punishing them for being upset, not giving them credit?
This is a thirteen year old boy we're talking about. He needs to have options for dealing with his feelings. I'm not saying that he's not responsible for anything at all, I'm saying that adults are also responsible. He's been diagnosed with a disorder that makes him prone to meltdowns and gives him trouble relating to other people and problem-solving.
Why would you possibly have something against teaching him coping skills before simply punishing him for getting upset?

I remember my father punching a hole in a wall-- it's a heck of a lot better than punching a person! Scary, yes, but it also indicates a need for help in controlling one's emotions. If you punish somebody for being upset, they're only going to be more upset.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if you're just trying to cause trouble here, because none of what you're saying is making any sense, granatelli.

And they say aspies have no empathy.. you can't imagine at all that someone would have feelings that need to get out somehow? You can't imagine that a thirteen year old boy might need a way to express his emotions? You can't imagine that he might need a way to escape from people for a little while, or have a punching bag to take his anger out on? You really think that being punished for losing control would help him or anybody else?
Or do you just not care? Whatever is most convenient for you and to hell with everybody else? Don't bother to try to understand that people have feelings and sometimes it's not just a matter of stuffing them down? I don't get it. We're not talking about an adult, we're talking about a thirteen year old who needs somebody to give him some freaking options for dealing with his feelings! THAT'S the difference between somebody who will eventually learn to cope and somebody who will end up in prison. The one who gets punished for having feelings eventually figures out that nobody cares about them. The person who gets offered some options for appropriately dealing with their feelings is the one who ends up being able to cope!