Is empathy a social construct?

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Our conflicting views are emotional. I'm NT and you present me with 2D views of NTs you know, and you tell me all NTs lack a self awareness (a kind of intelligence I value). The whole NT world is telling you that you 'lack' something that society values, so a society thats already ignorant of who you are insults you further.
We both have to free ourselves of the emotional attachment or any confirmation bias. My cards are on the table, I'm a fan of Aspie brains but not happy with your dissmissal of NTs as all following the herd (apart from pyschopaths, socialpaths and borderlines). Some of the questions are below. Clearly much depends on the empathy definition, but I just give mine,. I dont like defining things as deficits.

- is empathy (e.g. subconscious sensing of emotions that match another person's emotions) something that autistics lack and NTs have? What do we mean by 'lack' when there's cognitive/emotional empathy and it evidently can be learnt (and consciously processed).

- is awareness of social hierarchies (in goups/outgroup) something that NTs lack and autistics have? What do you mean by 'lack' if it can be learnt and be consciously processed.

I didn't think I "shared that empathy with autistics", I was talking about what I thought of as empathy as an NT, I thought I shared it with all human beings, whatever their neurology. You identified with it as an autistic and describe it as awesome. So.
- whats the nature of the connectedness thats autistics feel?
- whats the nature of the empathy/connectedness that NTs feel?

You go out an meet some nice independent thinking NTs for goodness sake. I will perhaps at some point get a chance to learn more. In the meantime I'm meant to be working (and nibbling grass, I do rather get off on pretending I'm a jersey cow and it feels awfully comfortable so I shall go before I argue your case for you

When I talk about NT empathy I mean the way they instinctively know their respective roles. Even if one of them is faking - so it's not who you are, it's the character you're playing. They see it as having friends but I see it as knowing their place in a hierarchy. Say you have two girls, one (and only one) will be able to say things that the other believes without question. I can't speak for other autistics but I'd bet most would find it a totally alien concept to believe something because someone said it, even someone you cared about, rather than believing things that are true.

Autistic empathy is more like where you see who a person is, and then give them what they need. I think many autistics have problems socially because many NTs would like to be seen as different from who they are, as characters in roles, so it's very hard to judge how to be nice to them because we don't have the script. I'm always delighted when I meet NTs who like to be seen as who they are, because they're very easy to deal with.

Well I do notice that lots of NTs have a kind of barrier they put up in terms of sticking to a certain role or acting out a certain personality that's a 2D version of what they really are. That kind of thing seems worst when you have people in groups/cliques. It's also worst with NT teenagers because they're insecure posers. But it does persist into adulthood in certain environments with certain types of people. Sometimes it's hard to tell if people are putting up a barrier or if they're just not very reflective. Sometimes people can appear phony as hell but then they obviously don't see themselves that way. It may just be that I have an impossible time relating to people who are so different from me. But then there are other NT's who are the polar opposite who I can relate to somewhat. Usually they are introverts.

Precisely.

Empathy is easier to have with people that are like me but is nevertheless perfectly possible to have empathy with people that are nothing like me and where there is no "connectedness".

I'm reading the lines all right. I do however defy anyone to feel something that is "pre-conscious".

Exactly, the notion is completely weird to you, because you haven't felt the difference yet. Autistics don't know how it feels unless they try oxytocin; (many) NTs can't imagine that their feelings about people are pre-conscious because it's all they've ever known. Hence the miscommunication about miscommunication.

Well you can't defy autistic people on those lines, but you could defy yourself and analyse your feelings?
Social hierarchy: instinctively showing appreciation and respect to what your doctor, teacher, boss, or anyone in a position of superiority to you says, regardless of logic and truth and intelligence. Pretending to agree or even, maybe, truly agree to unfair treatment of yourself or others, just because you "know your place".
How do you know who is above you on the social hierarchy? Once you're an adult, for example, are your children's teacher above you? They seem to all think they are, for some stange reason , even though they provide a service to YOUR child, they think you should not give your input and "know your place". I don't think it is the case and do not act according to this social hierarchy that I neither consciously or subconsciously feel. But NT parents seem to. They don't consciously argue this point with themselves. They seem to "just know" something that seems fake to me.

"Pretending to agree or even, maybe, truly agree"

Confusing, isn't it? How can a person accept something that isn't true? Surely deep down they know and they're just pretending. This version of empathy is very nonautistic and perplexing to anyone who hasn't experienced it firsthand, yet it perhaps defies description by someone who lives by it and knows nothing else. This is exactly why I encourage autistics to experiment with oxytocin. It's probable that only we can gain the insight required to work this out.

Do all nonautistic people truly agree? Or do they just go along so as to not rock the boat and/or subject themselves to the negative repercussions of a futile power struggle? I think all remotely intelligent people have had to put up with, at one point or another in their life, someone higher up on the social hierarchy they don't respect - someone who's not as intelligent as they think they are, or someone that's an outright incompetent idiot. This has little to do with neurological wiring. I think in most cases social hierarchy is simply an impersonal mechanism to keep things running smoothly. Not all NTs have some weird emotional adoration for their boss. If anything modern western society has a rather skeptical and individualistic mindset. In general we expect people in authority to have something to show for it.

I also don't think desires for companionship, emotional support, and/or feelings of community are hierarchical. Your usage of the word "social hierarchy" makes it look like you're trying throw a negative slogan/brand at all forms of human social cohesion. Instead of being about the mutual benefit of cooperation and altruism, it's all about those terrible sheeple using their social hierarchy to suppress your individual will and force you to conform. Seems pretty one sided to me.

Is this a case of sour grapes? Let me guess? You've been criticized by "normal" people for acting selfishly, so you want to debase the "empathy" they say you lack as mere herd behavior.

I think the answer to this is that the question only makes sense to us. To them the question is meaningless. I can usually look at a person and see if they're being played or merely playing along but most of the time they won't have access to that knowledge themselves. I really believe that what we consider to be a rational decision-making process has nothing in common with their version, but this is hidden because we use the same words and on the outside it looks kinda the same.

You're thinking too literally about hierarchies. The subconscious process for determining who's in and out is more subtle than I can describe. Think apes rather than managers/workers. What appears to be going on in human society may not be what's actually happening from an animal, genetic perspective, because it's hard to tell the story properly while you're in it.



No. I've experimented with oxytocin and MDMA and I've felt the pre-conscious warmth and hostility. I know because I've personally been there. I've said this lots of times.

I can agree with that not all NT are self satisfied cud chewing heard followers. In fact I think there is quite a variety of NT in the real world.
Just because some ethically inclined NT are naturally very good at projecting emotions and have great ease with understanding subtle emotional cue's in others does not necessary mean they care about what happens to others. They will not say something to reveal this as they are naturally acutely aware of the emotional impact. They can be thought of as masterful emotional manipulators. Think of a cult leader like a Jim Jones. Of coarse few people are so emotionally ruthless.

I personally do not think it is possible for an aspie to experience the natural clarity and fluid emotional understanding like many NT have, we are not wired like that. The same is true in reverse they cannot truly experience our world.

Altering with drugs like oxy and mdma are mimicking something closer to being in love. While it can strongly affect emotions it is not the same empathy capabilities as a NT has. And oxy, like being in love, is highly addictive. I would rather be a slave to a real person and family than be a slave to a drug.

I'm struck by the inability of some people here to read words in English.

I suggest two things:

1. Get over it. Not everything you say will be immediately transparent and comprehensible to everyone here, especially if you're applying a fairly idiosyncratic and complex concept to a rather simplified label.

2. Take a moment when someone makes a mistake to ascertain that it was a mistake. I don't see why you should expect people to understand something you won't explain, but can't seem to connect something like "functionally sociopathic" to "functioning sociopath", while simultaneously suggesting there's something wrong with other people's comprehension of English.

Well, I don't think I need to take oxytocin or MDMA to experience pre-conscious prejudice. I'm aware enough that I have it. I would prefer to use my conscious mind to check if my initial unconscious prejudice was truly justified. If I don't think it was justified I feel dirty and try to banish it.

But as an experimental subject, you're flawed...How can you possibly know what oxytocin helped? Was it autism, was it NPD? I'd be enclined to think it was the second, as that's the one you (possibly) weren't born with...

Dunno. Lots of researchers are looking at oxytocin for autism. Plus it explains the NT communication style. Try it yourself and see what you learn.