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The possibility that autism is the human evolutionary past

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rdos
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23 Mar 2013, 4:00 am

Ettina wrote:
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Once you have eliminated human diversity from the picture, you can then try to cure things that are not human diversity.


That would mean not curing anything at all.

Saying it's part of diversity doesn't indicate whether it's a good or bad trait. Everything is part of diversity. Every possible way that two humans can differ is part of diversity, whether it's having an IQ of 150 or being stillborn with cyclopia.


No, not everything is part of diversity. Your definition of human diversity is not realistic.

Here are some rules before a trait can be considered part of human diversity:
1. It cannot be environmental in nature, as we don't inherit environmental traits
2. It must be a trait that can be found in all non-African populations
3. The trait must have an evolutionary origin and some purpose

So we can still cure Vitamin D deficiencies and heavy metal poisoning. Mental retardation (assuming it isn't based
on biased IQ-tests) is not human diversity.

In addition to that, people that want to become part of the neurotypical society still are allowed to learn coping strategies, join ABA programs and such, but those that don't want to should have an option.



rdos
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23 Mar 2013, 4:10 am

hyperlexian wrote:
1. you still do not have any evidence to back up your assertion. basically, the researchers can hardly agree whether autistic individuals had any impact on human prehistory at all, and the evidence points to the possibility of the possibility of a small impact. there is no evidence for any other scenario, like an entire autistic culture. what you are proposing makes no sense given the facts.


IMHO, this is unprovable. You cannot prove it was not the case, and nobody can prove it was. Scientific theories cannot be based on such assertations, as a scientific theory must provide some ways to prove it.

hyperlexian wrote:
2. other mental illnesses are not new. they are as old as autism, and if they are on the same genes then it defies reason to think that autism is some sort of source of modern human culture whereas the others are simply side effects of evolution.


Agree. There will never be a credible theory for this complex of traits that singles out parts of it. A credible theory must account for all of it.


hyperlexian wrote:
that article you linked to was completely irrelevant because you were discussing cultural and human evolution, not the upsides of depression in modern society.


The evolutionary role of depression and Bipolar are straight-forward. They are adaptations for a seasonal climate, where there where a large advantage of going into low-activity mode during winter time since hunting in winter-time didn't provide reasonable benefits.



Ettina
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23 Mar 2013, 9:15 am

Quote:
Here are some rules before a trait can be considered part of human diversity:
1. It cannot be environmental in nature, as we don't inherit environmental traits
2. It must be a trait that can be found in all non-African populations
3. The trait must have an evolutionary origin and some purpose


That doesn't match my definition of diversity.



rdos
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23 Mar 2013, 10:45 am

Ettina wrote:
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Here are some rules before a trait can be considered part of human diversity:
1. It cannot be environmental in nature, as we don't inherit environmental traits
2. It must be a trait that can be found in all non-African populations
3. The trait must have an evolutionary origin and some purpose


That doesn't match my definition of diversity.


Your problem. :lol:



eric76
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23 Mar 2013, 3:58 pm

rdos wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
1. you still do not have any evidence to back up your assertion. basically, the researchers can hardly agree whether autistic individuals had any impact on human prehistory at all, and the evidence points to the possibility of the possibility of a small impact. there is no evidence for any other scenario, like an entire autistic culture. what you are proposing makes no sense given the facts.


IMHO, this is unprovable. You cannot prove it was not the case, and nobody can prove it was. Scientific theories cannot be based on such assertations, as a scientific theory must provide some ways to prove it.


Let me see if I understand you correctly -- nobody is permitted to argue against your view because it would be unscientific. Right?

Quote:
hyperlexian wrote:
2. other mental illnesses are not new. they are as old as autism, and if they are on the same genes then it defies reason to think that autism is some sort of source of modern human culture whereas the others are simply side effects of evolution.


Agree. There will never be a credible theory for this complex of traits that singles out parts of it. A credible theory must account for all of it.


hyperlexian wrote:
that article you linked to was completely irrelevant because you were discussing cultural and human evolution, not the upsides of depression in modern society.


The evolutionary role of depression and Bipolar are straight-forward. They are adaptations for a seasonal climate, where there where a large advantage of going into low-activity mode during winter time since hunting in winter-time didn't provide reasonable benefits.


Cites, please, that prove that depression and bipolar are adaptations for a seasonal climate.



naturalplastic
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23 Mar 2013, 4:02 pm

This 'theory' is all over the place.

I suggest you figure out what exactly the 'nub' of the issue is that you are trying raise with the scientific community.

Break it down to one simple question- a question that can be tested empiracally- and then present your question to the World.



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23 Mar 2013, 4:19 pm

TirelessMessenger wrote:
Eric 76 thanks for calling my hypothesis "absurd." I'm glad you grasp the gravity of what I am proposing. What I do not think is absurd is the modern evolutionary synthesis between genetics and natural selection.


Ah, we teased out that there is not in fact a "we" as in a research group, it is in fact just yourself. That aside, I am still interested in your hypothesis.


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rdos
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23 Mar 2013, 4:23 pm

eric76 wrote:
Cites, please, that prove that depression and bipolar are adaptations for a seasonal climate.


It's a hypothesis within the Neanderthal theory. A hypothesis that at least in principle is possible to prove/disprove. In addition to that, research that I have done indicates that depression in ASD is more common during winter-time.

The problem in the area of evolutionary hypothesis is that all of these are thought-up in a Savannah-environment as everything in our species is thought to come from Africa, which has no seasonal climate.



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23 Mar 2013, 4:31 pm

TirelessMessenger wrote:
Eric 76 thanks for calling my hypothesis "absurd." I'm glad you grasp the gravity of what I am proposing. What I do not think is absurd is the modern evolutionary synthesis between genetics and natural selection.


Genetics and natural selection go hand in hand.

My dog, Whiskey, is one of the dumbest dogs I've ever seen. A really good dog that is great with people, but he is downright stupid. I have never before seen a dog that took more than three encounters with porcupines to leave them alone. Whiskey got to go to the veterinarian yet again on Friday because of yet another encounter with a porcupine.

I've lost track how many times he has gotten a face full of porcupine quills, but it is somewhere between ten and twenty, probably around 15. He has had even more encounters with skunks.

In spite of this, it would be preposterous to conjecture that there was some breed of dogs that were so stupid that the dogs would have encounter after encounter after encounter after encounter with porcupines leaving them with a face full of quills each time.

Your approach seems quite similar to making such a conjecture. You decided on the result of the conjecture and then try to rationalize how to come up with that result. In the process, the rationalization it takes to support that result gets stretched awfully thin to the point of breaking.

whirlingmind wrote:
Ah, we teased out that there is not in fact a "we" as in a research group, it is in fact just yourself. That aside, I am still interested in your hypothesis.


Good catch! I missed that.



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23 Mar 2013, 4:34 pm

rdos wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Cites, please, that prove that depression and bipolar are adaptations for a seasonal climate.


It's a hypothesis within the Neanderthal theory. A hypothesis that at least in principle is possible to prove/disprove. In addition to that, research that I have done indicates that depression in ASD is more common during winter-time.

The problem in the area of evolutionary hypothesis is that all of these are thought-up in a Savannah-environment as everything in our species is thought to come from Africa, which has no seasonal climate.


You make a matter of fact statement that depression and bipolar are adaptations for a seasonal climate. Now you admit that it is nothing but something out of your pet conjecture?

For what it's worth, depression is supposedly more in the winter time with no regard to whether the sufferers are Autistic or not. It's called Seasonally Affective Disorder (SAD).



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23 Mar 2013, 5:19 pm

eric76 wrote:
You make a matter of fact statement that depression and bipolar are adaptations for a seasonal climate. Now you admit that it is nothing but something out of your pet conjecture?


It's a hypothesis with quite some age (I came up with this no later than 2004).

eric76 wrote:
For what it's worth, depression is supposedly more in the winter time with no regard to whether the sufferers are Autistic or not. It's called Seasonally Affective Disorder (SAD).


Now you are again making conclusions directly from DSM "just because SAD is not diagnostic for ASD, it means SAD is not connected with ASD". This is simply false, at least until it has been proved that SAD is not a neurodiversity-trait.

It didn't occur to you to check the list of possible neurodiversity traits i suggested? Try this one for instance: http://www.rdos.net/eng/aspeval/#105

Quote:
105. Do you often get depressed during winter-time?

Pearson's r
All: .25
Final: .35
Chi-square: 289
p < 0.0001
Cramer's phi: .21

'Factor loadings from principal components analysis

Aspie: .08
Neurotypical: .02

Correlated groups

Environment problem (.27)
Aspie perception (.27)


As expected, this is a perception issue.



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23 Mar 2013, 5:26 pm

rdos wrote:
[The evolutionary role of depression and Bipolar are straight-forward. They are adaptations for a seasonal climate, where there where a large advantage of going into low-activity mode during winter time since hunting in winter-time didn't provide reasonable benefits.


Hunting during winter time provided the reasonable benefit of not dying of starvation. Humans have never hibernated. We have always required food year round. In the winter, hunting was pretty much the only way to eat.



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23 Mar 2013, 5:30 pm

rdos wrote:
[Now you are again making conclusions directly from DSM "just because SAD is not diagnostic for ASD, it means SAD is not connected with ASD". This is simply false, at least until it has been proved that SAD is not a neurodiversity-trait.

It didn't occur to you to check the list of possible neurodiversity traits i suggested? Try this one for instance: http://www.rdos.net/eng/aspeval/#105

Quote:
105. Do you often get depressed during winter-time?

Pearson's r
All: .25
Final: .35
Chi-square: 289
p < 0.0001
Cramer's phi: .21

'Factor loadings from principal components analysis

Aspie: .08
Neurotypical: .02

Correlated groups

Environment problem (.27)
Aspie perception (.27)


As expected, this is a perception issue.


No.
http://www.webmd.com/depression/tc/seas ... c-overview
Quote:
Anyone can get SAD, but it is more common in:

People who live in areas where winter days are very short or there are big changes in the amount of daylight in different seasons.
Women.
People between the ages of 15 and 55. The risk of getting SAD for the first time goes down as you age.
People who have a close relative with SAD.
What causes SAD?
Experts are not sure what causes SAD, but they think it may be caused by a lack of sunlight. Lack of light may upset your sleep-wake cycle and other circadian rhythms. And it may cause problems with a brain chemical called serotonin that affects mood.



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23 Mar 2013, 5:35 pm

Janissy wrote:
Hunting during winter time provided the reasonable benefit of not dying of starvation. Humans have never hibernated. We have always required food year round. In the winter, hunting was pretty much the only way to eat.


It is true that humans cannot hibernate the same way as some animals can, but that doesn't mean that we cannot become general apatic and low-activity. If you read the book about the Dorset people, which were living in the arctic, and didn't have the comodities of later Inuit like oil lamps, it seems like these people survived the winter with no articifical heating. According to current stereotypes of hunter-gatherers, this should have been impossible, yet we know for sure they did because of what they left behind.

And as for requiring food year round, there are two ways to get around this:
1. Build up fat reserves (all hibernating mammals do that, and so does non-hibernating mammals as well)
2. Save food for winter



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23 Mar 2013, 5:41 pm

Janissy wrote:
No.
http://www.webmd.com/depression/tc/seas ... c-overview
Quote:
Anyone can get SAD, but it is more common in:

People who live in areas where winter days are very short or there are big changes in the amount of daylight in different seasons.
Women.
People between the ages of 15 and 55. The risk of getting SAD for the first time goes down as you age.
People who have a close relative with SAD.
What causes SAD?
Experts are not sure what causes SAD, but they think it may be caused by a lack of sunlight. Lack of light may upset your sleep-wake cycle and other circadian rhythms. And it may cause problems with a brain chemical called serotonin that affects mood.


Why no? Have these people researched if SAD and neurodiversity are related? I don't think so. Have they researched if SAD is the evolutionary response to a seasonal climate? Most likely not, since evolutionary hypotheses are formed in African environments.



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23 Mar 2013, 5:43 pm

rdos wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Hunting during winter time provided the reasonable benefit of not dying of starvation. Humans have never hibernated. We have always required food year round. In the winter, hunting was pretty much the only way to eat.


It is true that humans cannot hibernate the same way as some animals can, but that doesn't mean that we cannot become general apatic and low-activity. If you read the book about the Dorset people, which were living in the arctic, and didn't have the comodities of later Inuit like oil lamps, it seems like these people survived the winter with no articifical heating. According to current stereotypes of hunter-gatherers, this should have been impossible, yet we know for sure they did because of what they left behind.

And as for requiring food year round, there are two ways to get around this:
1. Build up fat reserves (all hibernating mammals do that, and so does non-hibernating mammals as well)
2. Save food for winter


3. hunt seals....which they did