Male Centric Autism Narrative and Undiagnosed Autistic Women

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Campin_Cat
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04 Jan 2015, 7:04 pm

btbnnyr wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

I prefer to help others practically instead of showing emotional empathic responses towards them.

But, what if that's not what THEY want. Sometimes people just want someone else to HEAR them, and tell them it's gonna be okay, for instance.

I don't know what they want, unless they tell me.

But, I think that's one of the main points of this thread----whether or not you, like, "instinctively" know when and what to say or do. When someone's hurting, it would really SUCK if they had to ALSO tell you what to do, to help them.

wozeree
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04 Jan 2015, 7:51 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

I prefer to help others practically instead of showing emotional empathic responses towards them.

But, what if that's not what THEY want. Sometimes people just want someone else to HEAR them, and tell them it's gonna be okay, for instance.

I don't know what they want, unless they tell me.

People complain about that all the time, but it's not just Autistic people that have that problem. A lot of married women I know get mad at their husbands because they don't instinctively know things like that without being told.

B19
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04 Jan 2015, 8:19 pm

Yes, marriage counsellors nearly always have to remind couples that neither is a mind reader. People have different ideas about what partners "should" do:

"They should always know what I want"
"They should give me the same as I give to them"
"They should fill my needs without me having to say anything"
"They should anticipate any help I need
"They should (fill in the blanks)...
"They should live this relationship the way I want it"

I wouldn't be a marriage counsellor if they paid me in gold bars every day... they try to turn the shoulds into coulds, though it's a hard road when one partner is extremely demanding and dominant..

Campin_Cat
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04 Jan 2015, 8:31 pm

Yes, I agree with both of you, wozeree and B19. I meant there are some things that people should know----like, if someone just experienced a death in their family, for instance----or, if someone just lost their job, etc.----I DO understand that they would've had to learn it, though.

I think someone on here said something about that they didn't know why they should do something for a person who was sad----and, "I" don't know why one wouldn't.

Someone also said that they learned that when they did something for someone else, that they felt better, THEMSELVES----THAT, I can understand.

btbnnyr
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04 Jan 2015, 8:42 pm

Waterfalls wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

Waterfalls wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

Ganondox wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

It seems what op is describing is some autistic children having milder social or general autistic traits than others, having less behavioral problems, and having less functioning problems, so they are not being diagnosed as early as others. This seems just like spectrum of autism. If a child is not presenting as autistic early, then that child won't be noticed, assessed, or diagnosed early according to current diagnostic practices.

No, that is not what I'm saying. They aren't more mild overall, they are actually more severe in some ways, they just present differently. I'm talking more about a personality difference than an autism difference, but keep in mind both groups here are on the mild end. You are just reading cognitive empathy when I meant affective empathy.

But what is this presentation more specifically?
I am still unclear about what this kind of girl is supposed to present like.
It seems that if they had empathy that they couldn't show in recognized ways, then they wouldn't present much differently from other autistic children who lacked the empathy in the first place.
If they showed normal empathy at a younger age, but fell behind in understanding others as they and their peers got older, then it seems that is the autism spectrum effect, that they have more mildly affected socially and they are noticed as autistic later.
If they were polite, obedient children without functioning problems beyond normal childhood problems, but appeared shy and submissive and not obviously lacking in some social/communication/cognition area, then adults would think they were shy and submissive, but otherwise normal.

I was (I think) a polite and obedient child but do you feel following rules is really the equivalent of functioning well? In some ways I did function extremely well, on the other hand I had no idea what was going on around me socially when I was a child.

As an adult, people have taught me to ask after how they are doing, and to make statements of caring (because I do but did not know how to show it well). Empathy can be taught, the outward manifestations anyway. As to why I feel it, I think I went through a lot and don't want to visit that on other people.

I have found it can be useful as well as kind to display empathy, when I can. I do it because I want to, I do it also because the consequences of doing so are often positive.

So I am curious, btbnnyr. Do you have any interest in learning this behavior/social skill (showing empathy) at this time in your life, or does it seem to foreign to you? It's just, you seem to be fascinated by something that fundamentally is no different in how I see it to learning to say hello and goodbye and considerably easier than trying to take turns nicely in conversation for me because I do genuinely care and prefer to show how I truly feel and be seen for me.

But do you know what others are thinking and feeling?

I have no interest in learning social skills that require me to make fake shows of empathy.
I prefer to help others practically instead of showing emotional empathic responses towards them.

No, I can only guess what others are thinking and feeling using my own experiences and observations to guide me. Also I can't easily predict what people will feel or how they will react, but if I've seen a pattern before, I can look for it again. For me I more notice reactions and respond. That part isn't intentional, I can't help seeing momentary expressions of if I happen to be looking at someone, and they show something negative, and that's confusing because it won't match the words and subsequent behaviors tend to get weird when that happens.

I think it through, though. What understanding I may be able to have isn't easy or automatic. But neither is it fake.

I felt genuine concern for example that you keep responding and seem intense about this issue. That may or may not be accurate. I then generalized that when I am intensely interested or curious or not understanding people's thinking this is almost painful to me and may, though isn't necessarily, be uncomfortable for you as well. So I wanted to try to provide more information that you might consider because of knowing how it makes me uneasy to have things not make sense. But I really don't know how you feel, just how I would feel and that you're responding a lot and how you're writing. I'm upset when I'm confused....I feel concern, maybe empathy for you. The only ungenuine thing about it is I don't really know how you feel and I suspect we are very different in person. On the other hand, as I have alexithymia and it is common in people on the spectrum, not sure it could ever be easy to articulate exact empathy.

And I also believe empathy can exist without being perfect, without being completely accurate though it's better when it's closer.

And, I believe empathy has practical value, I have spent and continue to spend too much of my time without receiving much of it not to see its value.

So now, I am curious again, do others make clear to you on a regular basis as they did and do with me that they don't think you're good enough to be part of the world, or are you considered entitled to participate? Perhaps experiencing so little empathy has contributed to who I am. But it may also be the unsettledness from people's confusing micro expressions and behavior that has impacted me. What do you think?

I don't understand feeling not good enough to be part of the world, or the thing with the confusing or negative microeggspressions. I don't think I think much, either intuiting or analyzing, about the possible social meanings of most of people's facial eggspressions or movements.

I am not sure why you are concerned about me posting a lot about this topic with many questions. I have many questions because hypotheses naturally tend to raise questions, like what specifically would be the behaviors of autistic children who are highly empathic, how would others know that they are empathic, how would they be reliably distinguished from neurotypical children, etc.

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wozeree
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04 Jan 2015, 8:55 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:

The problem with that is that people want different things when they are sad. Some people want hugs. Hugs make me cringe. I remember one time my sister hurt her back and her husband wanted to go fishing with his friends. It was almost comical (but a little scary to me) how she was demanding he read her mind. I was like JUST TELL HIM WHAT YOU WANT.

She was all, HE SHOULD KNOW.

Marriage is a tyranny. They're still happily married though, which is good.

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04 Jan 2015, 9:15 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:

When someone's hurting, it would really SUCK if they had to ALSO tell you what to do, to help them.[/b][/color]

I read this line to my boyfriend, he stuck his tongue out at me, took his computer and started working on his code. And then said "especially if they get upset if they can't."

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Rocket123
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04 Jan 2015, 11:19 pm

I just happened to come across this and thought it was interesting. It suggests that normal people can willfully choose to express empathy (or not).

btbnnyr
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05 Jan 2015, 2:16 pm

I think that overwhelming emotional distress due to contagion from other people is not really empathy, as it is self-centered response, the person focusing on one's own hyperemotional responses instead of other person, lacking cognitive empathy, and unable to engage in empathic behaviors. In a child who has such responses, it seems that they would appear hyperemotional often, but without other-oriented social empathic behaviors like comforting people, and probably not practical help due being overwhelmed by their own emotions. The whole thing seems like a low-level emotional contagion amplified by emotional dysregulation. The contagion itself is initial sign of affective empathy, but emotional dysregulation takes over quickly to prevent socially adaptive affective empathy that allows one to connect emotionally with others and strenghten relationships instead of emotional distress alone, such behaviors possibly alienating others in the process.

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B19
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05 Jan 2015, 2:24 pm

btbnnyr wrote:

Today I saw photographs of a tortured dog, on an animal rescue page that I belong to. I had a fairly strong response of extreme compassion for the animal, rage at the abuse, and these combined to cause me emotional distress which while not totally overwhelming (I could still think and function rationally) though very affecting. Is that what you would call contagion?

btbnnyr
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05 Jan 2015, 2:30 pm

B19 wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

That seems like normal sympathy and compassion for the dog.
There probably is emotional contagion from the suffering of the dog to you.
Your response seems like the normal adaptive kind of affective empathy.
Since you were not overwhelmed by your own emotions, you would be in a position to help the dog, if this were happening in front of you, or if you were able to do something from afar.

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Campin_Cat
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05 Jan 2015, 2:35 pm

wozeree wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

As to your not liking hugs----and many, DON'T----if I didn't know someone, they WOULD have to tell me.

As to you sister, I definitely see what she means----BUT, I also definitely see what YOU mean. It's the male / female thing. There are some of us females that are, maybe, by nature, intuned to when someone needs something, and we can't understand why others AREN'T----UNLESS, it's a man, in my case. If that would've been my husband, I would've said: "Oh, honey, can you please stay with me today, to keep me company----I really am feeling, badly"----or, something like that.

Ganondox
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05 Jan 2015, 3:25 pm

btbnnyr wrote:

Ganondox wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

What is abnormal about empathy in children who show normal empathy behaviorally?

While it works as an approach, behaviorism is wrong as theory. Different mental states can lead to the same behavior. Anyway, they may actually demonstrate abnormal behavior, it's just no one notices it is abnormal.

Does that mean that their behaviors showing normal empathy are faked?

No, it means exactly what I said it means, same behavior, different reason, but it's equally genuine. It's not faked, the process is just different. Also, as said before, the behavior is likely actually abnormal, abnormal empathy doesn't mean lacking empathy. It just still comes across as empathetic even if it's atypical. For example, doing something practical for someone in need as you mentioned before, people can see you care. That's technically sympathy, not empathy, but empathy is often used that way in common speech.

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btbnnyr
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05 Jan 2015, 3:33 pm

Do normal empathic behaviors mean normal empathy?
It seems like they would.
It seems that adults would think that an autistic child had normal empathy, only if the child displayed normal empathy behaviors, as they probably wouldn't recognize abnormal empathy behaviors as empathy.
If the child displayed normal empathy, then the adults might think that the child was too empathic to be autistic, or in the absence of behavioral/functioning problems, that there was nothing to be concerend about with the child.
But if the child often displayed abnormal emotional reactions like having emotional meltdowns or crying fits often, then adults might be concerned.

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Ganondox
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05 Jan 2015, 3:47 pm

btbnnyr wrote:

"Do normal empathic behaviors mean normal empathy?"

NO.

"It seems like they would."

Let's illustrate this with computers. One computer uses iterated addition to multiple integers, the other uses a more efficient algorithm implementing various tricks people found in it's GUI. Both get to the same result and in most circumstances there is no noticeable difference in functioning, but fundamentally they work differently.

On the flipside, normal empathy doesn't necessarily imply normal empathic behaviors either because something else might be in the way. Arbitrarily, the something in the way may be categorized as abnormal empathy depending on exactly what it is.

"as they probably wouldn't recognize abnormal empathy behaviors as empathy."
Here we are assuming they are. Most people don't have a clinical knowledge of normal empathetic behaviors, they just see their child showing concern.

"If the child displayed normal empathy, then the adults might think that the child was too empathic to be autistic, or in the absence of behavioral/functioning problems, that there was nothing to be concerned about with the child." Yes, exactly.

"But if the child often displayed abnormal emotional reactions like having emotional meltdowns or crying fits often, then adults might be concerned." Might be, they may not recognize it as being abnormal. Keep in mind that many parents of autistic children display autistic traits themselves. Also, there is more to abnormal emotional reactions than meltdowns or crying fits, often it's more subtly abnormal.

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btbnnyr
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05 Jan 2015, 3:56 pm

I disagree that normal empathic behaviors don't indicate normal empathy, eggsept when the behaviors are faked without corresponding internal eggsperience of empathy.
There is no evidence that the computer algorithm analogy applies.

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