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The_Walrus
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22 Jul 2015, 6:14 am

AspieUtah wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
I have an open mind about things in life unless and until I have proof to the contrary.

That would have you believing in all kinds of crazy stuff (such as the notion that the relative locations of Jupiter and Saturn at the time of your birth affect your personality). Much better to refuse to believe something unless you have an appropriate amount of evidence....

Ah, another personalized ad hominem attack which is irrelevant to the topic.

It is not personalised, ad hominem, an attack, or irrelevant. The "you" I used there was a generalised second person. I was pointing out the flaws in a dodgy empirical epistemology that leads to people... believing in astrology. That is extremely relevant to this discussion, particularly as you raised that dodgy reasoning as a justification for believing in astrology.

slenkar wrote:
Hmm the journal that posted the anti astrology article has multiple articles saying that ESP is real!
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/i ... 6/art00004
Lol

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/i ... 6/art00006
If you think that peer reviewed journals are always right you have to believe in ESP now!

Straw man. Nobody believes peer reviewed journals are always right.

Both of these articles are review articles. There is a well-documented publication bias towards positive findings in ESP studies - try to get an article published on how ESP doesn't exist, and everyone says "well yes, we know"; try to get one published that shows it might exist, and you'll get loads of attention.

Quote:
The anti astrology article is here and it actually admits astrology is true in the abstract but then says it only has a weak influence
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/i ... 6/art00010
Quote:
. The possibility that astrology might be relevant to consciousness and psi is not denied, but such influences, if they exist in astrology, would seem to be very weak or very rare.

That doesn't say "astrology is true", it says its influences are "very weak or very rare". That's science speak for "probably not true but our study doesn't conclusively show it".

But OK, that journal might be so disreputable that it undermines your faith in anything it publishes. How about something from Nature? It's not online yet, but I found this summary: http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/AstroSkc.htm



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22 Jul 2015, 6:32 am

University of California researcher Shawn Carlson concluded his unique double-blind test of astrology, as published in the December 5 (1985) issue of Nature.

His conclusion reads:

University of California researcher Shawn Carlson wrote:
... astrology failed to perform at a level better than chance. Tested using double-blind methods, the astrologers' predictions proved wrong. Their predicted connection between the positions of the planets and other astronomical objects at the time of birth and the personalities of test subjects did not exist. The experiment clearly refutes the astrological hypothesis.

And the response from astrologers was as one would expect:
Quote:
The newsletter of the American Federation of Astrologers Network published a response in January (1986). "I was very disappointed to see that it largely consists of personal attacks," Carlson said. He said its few substantive criticisms are attributable to ignorance of his experiment, of the CPI, and of basic scientific methodology.
In other words, astrologers attacked Carlson, the CPI, and the Scientific Method. They also seemed to lack any real understanding of the experiment.

Science works. If there had been any substance to the "Astrology Hypothesis", the results would have met or exceeded the standards set by the astrologers themselves. As it was, astrology failed ... once again!

:lol:



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22 Jul 2015, 9:07 am

slenkar wrote:
'In some circumstances'

The skeptics are still ignoring the michael shermer video and the abundance of sun saturn aspects in male aspies.
Skeptics ignore anything they cant explain.
Btw how was astrology debunked in the university?



What is the rate of sun saturn aspects in NT males? around the same ages as those of the aspies you've polled? I'm just curious.
thanks,



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22 Jul 2015, 12:40 pm

May 17, 1963, Elmhurst Illinois, and I forgot the time.

Seven pages and nobody has tried to sneak in "Rings around Uranus?"



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22 Jul 2015, 12:52 pm

Dr. Michael Shermer, PhD., debunks myths, superstitions and urban legends. He is an American science writer, historian of science, founder of "The Skeptics Society", and Editor in Chief of its magazine "Skeptic", which is largely devoted to investigating pseudoscientific and supernatural claims. The Skeptics Society currently has over 55,000 members. Dr. Shermer also engages in debates on topics pertaining to pseudoscience and religion in which he emphasizes scientific skepticism.

(Link: The Curriculum Vitae of Dr. Michael Schermer, PhD.)

Shermer is the author of books that explain the ubiquity of irrational or poorly substantiated beliefs, including UFOs, Bigfoot, Astrology, Tarot, and other paranormal claims. In 1997 he wrote "Why People Believe Weird Things", which explores a variety of "weird" ideas and groups, including cults. A revised and expanded edition was published in 2002. From the Introduction:

Michael Schermer wrote:
So we are left with the legacy of two types of thinking errors: Type 1 Error: believing a falsehood and Type 2 Error: rejecting a truth. ... Believers in UFOs, alien abductions, ESP, and psychic phenomena have committed a Type 1 Error in thinking: they are believing a falsehood. ... It's not that these folks are ignorant or uninformed; they are intelligent but misinformed. Their thinking has gone wrong.

From his website (http://www.michaelschermer.com):

Michael Schermer wrote:
My third subject was another young lady, age 20, and was my toughest read of the day. She gave monosyllabic answers to my incidental questions for extracting information, and did not seem to have much going on in her life that required much in the way of psychic advice. I downloaded an astrological chart from the Internet. It was constructed some time ago for a guy named John, born May 9, 1961. My subject was born September 3, 1982. I haven’t got a clue what the chart is suppose to mean, but since it doesn’t actually mean anything I began by explaining that "the stars incline but do not compel", and then I just made up a bunch of stuff about how the conjunction of having a rising moon in the third house and a setting sun in the fifth house is an indication that she has a bright future ahead of her, and that her personality is a healthy balance between mind and spirit, intellect and intuition. Her nods indicated agreement.

I tossed out a bunch of high probability guesses and got about half of them right ..., then closed the reading by asking her if she had any questions for me. She said that she had applied for a scholarship in order to participate in a foreign student exchange program in England, and wanted to know if she was going to get it. I responded that the important issue at hand was not whether she was going to get the scholarship or not, but how she would deal with getting it or not getting it, and that I was highly confident that her well balanced personality would allow her to handle whatever the outcome. This seemed to go over well. In the post-reading interview she was much more positive than I anticipated, considering how stilted the reading was...
(Source: "Psychic for a Day")

It seems that Dr. Schermer is a fully dyed-in-the-wool skeptic, having gained familiarity with the Astrology Con Game through study and personal experience (as did Yours Truly). His debunking skills are exemplary, and his methods have readily exposed how flattery and leading questions are more important than any alleged ephemeral knowledge.



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22 Jul 2015, 12:53 pm

michael517 wrote:
May 17, 1963, Elmhurst Illinois, and I forgot the time. Seven pages and nobody has tried to sneak in "Rings around Uranus?"
I used the term "Nibiru consorting with Uranus" ... is that close enough?



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22 Jul 2015, 3:12 pm

Please drop the time consortium for one day. Address my eyes sir and not at a glance!


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22 Jul 2015, 3:33 pm

I'll just do this for fun. I don't believe or disbelieve birth signs and birth years.
Gemini. Just Gemini. Kinda odd with the stereotypical Gemini traits being merged into the stereotypical aspie traits.

Or is it? Because sometimes it says Taurus instead.


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22 Jul 2015, 3:35 pm

^^ Oooo, the Scorpio one has fade-to-purple eyeshadow----can't ever have too much purple!!












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22 Jul 2015, 3:38 pm

You have to put your PLACE of birth, as well, Edna.












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22 Jul 2015, 4:23 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
You have to put your PLACE of birth, as well, Edna.


Edna3362 wrote:
I'll just do this for fun. I don't believe or disbelieve birth signs and birth years.
Gemini. Just Gemini. Kinda odd with the stereotypical Gemini traits being merged into the stereotypical aspie traits.

Or is it? Because sometimes it says Taurus instead.


To be sure, here:
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5:09 AM (GMT+8)


Alrighty. I was born in the Philippines, more specifically at 15.4865047/120.973393.


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22 Jul 2015, 5:11 pm

Many a times there have been these so-called « psychics » and fortune-tellers who have made attempts into « predicting my future » and they have always been... incorrect (but I could be what you call one of them: exceptions).

I have only had ONE encounter within my life where I had met/encountered someone whom I would regard as having the « genuinely psychic-ability » called « telepathy » when I was once in Las Vegas for a visitation (but she did not have the ability to predict the future & was honest enough to admit that she did not have such ability). She did NOT out-right make any claims about being a psychic, but rather, our conversation initially consisted of her responding to the various thoughts within my mind, and she would just spout out the exact words or concepts within my mind (even if I were to come up with something like random combinations of colours) without me even saying anything about what I was thinking, inquiring with me about one thing or another (and this has NOTHING to do with reading facial-expressions as I AM an official-diagnosed Aspie/HFA so cold-reading is ruled OUT).

I did have a few other « telepathic/like » experiences within my life but nothing was ever as so precise as when I had encountered her in particular (and she seemed to be able to tell that I could sense that she had such an ability, then I somehow picked up on the fact that she picked up on my ability to sense her ability, then I was like oh crap it's like she could detect that I could detect something unusual about her which turned out to be the case as revealed in my previous paragraph). Eventually I did a « mental-picturing » creating an anti-radio static-field around my head to cut off any kind of telepathic psychic-lines then she was like « just lost connection » (I did this in order to try & protect any potentially sensitive information/experiences of mine from being blurted out & heard by the other people who were around as there were already a couple of personal-details about myself that I did not want anybody to know that she blurted out).

Regarding predicting the future, perhaps I have a theory, that when one's logical-reasoning & rational-thinking abilities gets to be too high, that any « predictive psychic-influences » simply no longer work very accurately on such individuals (like myself, not to brag or anything, because I DO happen to be VERY MODEST :wink: ), even though I used to be able to for some reason « see » certain things & events happening before they actually happened (including visions of a fire at our house back in the day in the exact same location that I had envisioned it six months earlier). The other possibility is that receiving « visions » whilst in an almost trance-like state could actually be a « scenario-causing » ability (i.e.: simply via thinking a certain scenario, regardless of the situation/scenario, that the trancer's thoughts are causing the phenomenon into potentially happening !).

I see it more like our existence is some sort of video-game, and certain people have access to certain options, and simply by doing things that look psychic, they can access or even trigger certain « content » from this virtual-reality (kind of like starting a quest & then getting points & rewards if they can complete the quest successfully). Even though we as these video-game characters of this virtual-reality may not necessarily know what that quest consists of as we could just be being controlled by which-ever players are controlling us as their video-game characters (perhaps if multiple players are controlling the same character that could result in what we might call: MPD 8O ).

Future-predictions have not actually worked for me except on very rare occasions (i.e.: statistical-chance), and I suspect the same would be for astrology or horoscopes (due to being extreme with my logical-reasoning abilities which may have been a « quest » that I completed some time ago in order to negate any kind of astrological or psychic-prediction influences so that I could go about & proceed with making my very own decisions). Ever notice how the « skeptics » within these forums don't give me bother with the « woo » that I purvey/promote ? See, I am awesome at video-games (like I am some sort of master-gamer), and that is also another result of the many « quests » that I have completed during this current earth-life ! :wink:

Man, this agnosticism stuff is awesome, for it lets me access more quests & content & become ultra-hybrid !
(Like if skeptics & believers & atheists & christians & muslims & name any kinds of classes or careers or professions, etc., are like the classes/jobs/professions/categories that are found in many role-playing video-games, such as wizards & clerics & warriors & mages & sorcerers & archers & hunters & etc., then you could say that I've multi-classed into the extreme ! :D )

Yes, I think it is a mistake to adhere to any kind of rigid mental-construct, whether religious or scientific or spiritual.


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22 Jul 2015, 8:18 pm

Edna3362 wrote:
Alrighty. I was born in the Philippines, more specifically at 15.4865047/120.973393.


That's a really specific location! Were you born in a vehicle? Cab on the way to the hospital?



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23 Jul 2015, 12:39 am

This is mine and it goes along with your theory:
Sun Trine Jupiter 3.22 30
Sun Conjunction Saturn 6.11 42
Sun Square Uranus 0.05 -64
Sun Conjunction Neptune 0.30 228
Sun Sextile Pluto 1.30 69
Moon Trine Venus 6.13 18
Moon Square Saturn 4.37 -39
Moon Trine Ascendant 0.59 79
Moon Conjunction Midheaven 3.43 226
Mercury Sextile Mars 3.48 14
Mercury Trine Uranus 6.40 18
Venus Conjunction Mars 7.33 64
Venus Square Jupiter 1.14 -33
Venus Trine Ascendant 5.14 12
Venus Trine Midheaven 2.30 24
Mars Sextile Uranus 2.53 50
Jupiter Trine Saturn 2.50 53
Jupiter Trine Neptune 2.51 32
Jupiter Sextile Pluto 1.52 45
Saturn Conjunction Neptune 5.41 135
Saturn Square Midheaven 0.54 -44
Uranus Square Neptune 0.35 -45
Uranus Opposition Midheaven 7.10 -12
Neptune Sextile Pluto 0.60 45



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23 Jul 2015, 5:21 pm

I just noticed that the Double-Slit Experiment actually Supports my Theory as to why Astrology may has merit/validity for some people whilst it only seems to have Statistical-Odds of Normal-Chance for others. This thread now needs a Video-Demonstration/Explanation/Description on the Double-Slit Experiment...

I think that maybe it works for people who lend it credibility whilst it comes across as a « woo » for those who ignore the idea that there is such a thing for any kind of evidence of the « woo » phenomenon. This actually makes a lot of sense for myself due to my own personal-experiences with having gone through many paradigm-shifts throughout my current earth-life. Also, I once played this game called Final Fantasy Tactics, and the « faith-levels » determined whether the characters had Astrological-Compatibility or not, and higher « Faith-Levels » (determined by a percentage-bar) reflected the amount of power/effectiveness of the character's magic-spells, and of course you wouldn't set the jobs/classes/professions of low-faith characters as White/Black/Red/Blue-Mages or Priests or Sorcerers or anything that used Para-Normal/Magic-Abilities to survive in battle, because low percentages meant low amounts of offensive-magic damage as well as very low amounts of healing effects from restorative-spells, but they could excel at other things depending on their attributes/Zodiac-Sign, etc.


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03 Aug 2015, 2:55 pm

here are the results for sun-saturn aspects:
Orbs:
7
2
7
7
1
2
8
4
7
7
12
7
7
16
9
3
8
6
any orb bigger than 8 is a negative
There are 18 results altogether
With 15 positives.
If you give the Sun an orb of 8 degrees the chances of any person having a sun-saturn aspect are about 1/3

15/18
is
2.5/3

Why is there a chance of 1/3 of being born with a sun/saturn aspect?
There are 8 aspects:
conjunction
opposition
2 squares
2 sextiles
2 trines

an orb of 8 is actually allowing saturn to be 8 degrees either side of the sun, so really it's 16 degrees
8*16=128

There are 360 degrees in a circle
360/128 is about a third.
1/3 chance of being born with a sun/saturn aspect.

So about a third of people have father issues :)

1/3 of all people are not diagnosed with asperger's
Asperger's is a label put on certain behaviours,
sun-saturn causes certain personality traits that have different labels

E.g.Shyness,

are 1/3 of people shy? maybe.

If you have planets in certain signs you can get past shyness.
Sun in Gemini or Libra would make it easier for someone to put on a sociable face on in public, and would make the person less likely to go looking for help with being shy.