A bit on differential diagnosis between AS and autism
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
I've made this point several times here, and since it gained some traction, I thought I would quote some references. I don't have the actual studies linked, but I did locate other references that discussed the same issue, which is part of the reason that AS is being merged with ASD.
The short version is that a lot of people (apparently mostly children, but there are reasons adults get this too) who have been diagnosed with AS should - per the DSM-IV criteria - have been diagnosed with autism instead:
al. 1995). The general conclusion of these studies is that a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome is almost impossible using current DSM-IV criteria.
Many clinicians, including myself, have rejected the hierarchical rule. The general consensus among clinicians at present is that if the current profile of abilities of the child is consistent with the descriptions of Asperger’s syndrome, then the diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome takes precedence over a diagnosis of autism. Thus, contrary to the DSM-IV, if a child meets criteria for both autism and Asperger’s syndrome, the child is usually given a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome by clinicians (Mahoney et al. 1998). It is important to recognize that the diagnostic criteria are still a work in progressA hierarchical approach The DSM-IV guidelines are that if the criteria for autism are confirmed in a diagnostic assessment, then despite the child’s cognitive, social, linguistic,motor and sensory abilities and interests being consistent with the descriptions of a child with Asperger’s syndrome, a diagnosis of autism should take precedence over a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome.
And this pdf online:
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/psychol ... t_2004.pdf
Moreover, the DSM-IV criteria neglect the interactive nature of the core symptom areas of AsD and AuD (Kugler, 1998). Consequently, if clinicians adhere strictly to the DSM-IV criteria, it is virtually impossible to make a diagnosis of AsD (Mayes & Calhoun, 2001). Several studies have documented that most children who receive a diagnosis of AsD should or could have been diagnosed with AuD, suggesting that clinicians must be basing their diagnosis on criteria other than those specified in the DSM-IV (Eisenmajer et al., 1996; Mayes, Calhoun, & Crites, 2001). For instance, Sciutto and Cantwell (2003) found that a higher IQ and a desire to engage others in social interaction when combined with an absence of a language delay significantly increased the likelihood of an Asperger’s diagnosis. In their study, the presence of a delay in language milestones decreased the likelihood but did not rule out an Asperger’s diagnosis. In fact, many clinicians (55%) recommended a diagnosis of Asperger’s Disorder even when there was clear evidence of a language delay, which suggests that other factors may lead clinicians to move beyond the DSM criteria.
And from the DSM5 rationale:
Link here to cache, as the DSM-V site is unresponsive for me
The ‘Asperger’ label has proved popular, ‘acceptable’, and has widened recognition of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) in combination with good language and intelligence. In addition, the introduction of this diagnostic entity has achieved the intended aim of prompting research into possible differences between this and other subgroups of PDD, with more than 500 published articles on Asperger syndrome.
1.1. Do the DSM-IV criteria work in clinical practice?
A number of published papers have argued that the DSM-IV Asperger disorder criteria do not work in the clinic (e.g., Mayes et al., 2001; Miller & Ozonoff, 2000; Leekam, Libby, Wing, Gould & Gillberg, 2000). Specifically, key problems exist in applying the current criteria:
· Early language details are hard to establish in retrospect, especially for older children and adults; average age of first diagnosis is late (7 years according to Mandell et al. 2005; 11yrs, Howlin & Asgharian, 1999).
· The trumping rule means most/all Asperger cases should strictly be diagnosed as having ‘Autistic disorder’ (Miller & Ozonoff, 2000; Bennett et al, 2008; Williams et al, 2008), although clinicians prefer to give the more specific term (Mahoney, et al.,1998)
o Specifically, since language delay is not a necessary criterion for Autistic disorder, to meet criteria for Asperger disorder (without being trumped by Autistic disorder), a person would need to fail to meet Communication criteria for Autistic disorder. In practice, the Communication criterion (B.2.) of “marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others” is typically met by even very able individuals fitting the Asperger picture.
As a result, ‘Asperger syndrome’ is used loosely with little agreement: e.g. Williams et al (2008) survey of 466 professionals reporting on 348 relevant cases, showed 44% of children given Asperger, PDD-NOS, atypical autism, or ‘other ASD’ label actually fulfilled criteria for Autistic Disorder (overall agreement between clinician’s label and DSM-IV criteria; Kappa 0.31).
I have found that with a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome I keep running up against expectations that my condition and symptoms should be mild, which they are not. I said something to SuperTrouper to this effect when she was discussing whether AS is the correct diagnosis for her.
However, a lot of people really identify with the AS label (and as Aspies), and they feel this diagnosis fits them best - so I'm not going to particularly argue that anyone needs a specific label over any other label.
I don't think anything in these quotes should be used to minimize differences in severity - as many people find things problematic that others find difficult to identify with.
I don't fully understand the reasoning behind separating autism in to 5 or so different disorders. Perhaps it is the medical communities way of dealing with so much variety in terms of this disorder. I was considerably late to speak myself even though I was eventually diagnosed with asperger's (I was tested for speech delay as a toddler when I was suspected to have fragile x) I was able to respond to language, just not verbally. I do fine with speech now as you can see, but not always so well in conversations.
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
The purpose of Asperger's Syndrome as a diagnosis was to make it easier to identify and diagnose children who were not getting diagnosed as autistic because they did not fit the accepted and understood profile of "autistic" - that is, late speech and such. Lorna Wing had identified a lot of autistic children who didn't fit that profile (or at least apparently didn't fit it) and brought Asperger's work into the English speaking world, which ultimately resulted in it getting placed in the DSM-IV.
I believe PDD-NOS exists to diagnose people who are clearly autistic but don't perfectly fit the Autism criteria (although apparently some of the studies referenced also say most of these also do fit the criteria, but history wasn't properly attainable).
MakaylaTheAspie
Veteran
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 14,636
Location: O'er the land of the so-called free and the home of the self-proclaimed brave. (Oregon)
MakaylaTheAspie
Veteran
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 14,636
Location: O'er the land of the so-called free and the home of the self-proclaimed brave. (Oregon)
Within regards to separating autism into 5 different categories (although here I am focusing only on Aspergers and Autism), I don`t think it started out as one spectrum that was then subdivided. I could be wrong about that, but I am under the impression that both profiles developed in different countries by different men around the same time (without basing their original studies on each other`s work, I think). Kanner identified autism, and Asperger identified Aspergers (duh...)! These were treated as two separate diagnoses, I think, and then were ultimately brought together under one spectrum (still with different names, but acknowledged as being very closely related).
_________________
Diagnosed with classic Autism
AQ score= 48
PDD assessment score= 170 (severe PDD)
EQ=8 SQ=93 (Extreme Systemizer)
Alexithymia Quiz=164/185 (high)
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
It would be nice. I feel like it's all too easy to get ahead of many professionals in this subject.
Hans Asperger had four patients, I think, and some of Kanner's patients would have fit nicely among Asperger's group.
There's a certain kind of profile identified, though - Kanner focused on other things and Asperger focused on verbal abilities and such.
I think there are distinct profiles that exist - as you've been pointing out - although I suspect there are more than two (or 5) or whatever and because of a lack of diagnostic consistency, diagnosis does not always match profile.
btbnnyr
Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
Most people think of Autism as the nonverbal child rocking from side to side in the corner. Most people that know of AS think of it as either a jerk that just wants to feel special, or some really smart and nerdy guy talking about theoretical physics without looking anyone in the eye. While these are only stereotypes, I identify myself as an aspie, because I'm much more like the last example. I basically am the stereotypical aspie.
_________________
Remember, all atrocities begin in a sensible place.
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
I like to point to this blog post about Kanner's patients to point out how many of his patients did not fit that profile, and adding children who were previously diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia ("low-functioning" as they're often described) was actually pretty controversial.
Here's another post that discusses the same topic
To be honest, I had never heard of the "nonverbal child stimming in the corner" stereotype until I came here. I realize now that it's fairly pervasive, though.
What I want to know is:
Why is the child always in a corner?
Why is the child always described as either rocking or banging their head?
And finally, if it's clear this stereotype fails to capture the reality of the autistic spectrum, why do people refer back to it?
Why is the child always in a corner?
Why is the child always described as either rocking or banging their head?
And finally, if it's clear this stereotype fails to capture the reality of the autistic spectrum, why do people refer back to it?
I think Autism Speaks is here to blame for that. Before I came here to WP, I never, and I mean never, would have even considered myself being autistic. Most people have no idea that there is a such thing as an autistic spectrum.
_________________
Remember, all atrocities begin in a sensible place.
My complete understanding about Autism for close to 20 years, was "Rainman". I was 28 when I saw the movie, never had heard of Autism before the movie, and never encountered anyone specifically identified as Autistic until 2007. I still vividly remember him sitting in the corner distressed rocking back and forth. I think that may be where the stereotype for some comes from, at least for those that have seen that movie.
Whatever other attempts at Autism awareness that were being made in all those years, made no impression what so ever on me. If I had not had a personal reason to understand it better, I would probably still have the same pre-conceived notion from the movie. I would imagine most people in their thirties up have seen the movie; it was hard to forget.
By the same token, I imagine those that haven't encountered schizophrenic individuals view the condition light of either "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest" or "A Beautiful Mind" For me it was "One Flew over the Cuckoo's nest" for many years.
I took coursework in College on this stuff, but at least for me, the visual presentation made the impact that lasted for me.
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
That's not what I remember about Rainman - I have no recollection of him sitting in a corner rocking. What I remember is the way he talked and the words he used. I remembered his echolalia and palilalia the most, as well has his splinter skill.
My first encounter with autism was actually a character in a comic book that was not actually autistic - Legion/David Haller, Professor Xavier's son (from the X-Men). He had what we'd now call dissociative identity disorder, possibly PTSD, possibly some other things, but he was described as having been made autistic due to trauma, which was apparently a belief in the 70s. I got no sense of what he was like and that prompted me to find out what "autistic" meant. My mother said "Shy" which didn't help.
I read about things like TMS research related to autism in the early 2000s, some professional (that is, inaccurate) descriptions of how autistic people think, and some examples of how they react to things that were a bit, er, off. I also found out that someone I knew in high school was diagnosed with AS in 2003 or so (I knew his sister - I never connected the fact that her last name was the same as his last name). So I read about Asperger's Syndrome and made a couple connections but didn't think I had AS myself.
I never really developed a strong stereotype of what to expect from autistic people over time, I treated each thing like an individual event. I did notice places where I was similar, but that mostly made me self-conscious, but I didn't think I was actually autistic.
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| I got my diagnosis! |
23 Jul 2026, 4:54 pm |
| received my diagnosis today ASD/ADHD |
31 Jul 2026, 3:55 pm |
| Having Autism |
27 Jul 2026, 3:08 pm |
| New here - Sobriety & autism, etc |
27 Jul 2026, 10:40 am |
