McKinnon

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squonk
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05 Dec 2011, 5:06 am

Wasn't it that he got his diagnosis after he was caught doing what he is accused of doing?

http://freegary.org.uk/

Wolfheart
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05 Dec 2011, 5:18 am

Yes, he was diagnosed many years later, the alleged crime he committed was between 2001 and 2002, he didn't receive a diagnosis until 2008 by Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, Professor Jeremy Turk and Professor Thomas Bernie.

squonk
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05 Dec 2011, 9:49 am

Wolfheart wrote:

Thanks Wolfheart, just as I thought. All a bit too convenient. Same as a couple of years ago here a man molested boys and suddenly 'discovered' he had a form of autism. Plausible but all too convenient. I have Asperger's. But I am able to know right from wrong. I would never fall back on my condition as some kind of excuse but the condition can contribute to 'reasons' why people can and aren't [obv] able to do certain things.

Wolfheart
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05 Dec 2011, 12:08 pm

squonk wrote:

It also gives the media ammo to fire at us even more and pretend that we don't know right from wrong or have any understanding of actions or consequences. I agree that he should face the consequences of the crime and I do think he is regretful for what he did. Also technically, If you're on a US domain then you must abide by US computer laws, because your computer access is in the US, not the UK so it does make sense if he is persecuted in the US.

Tequila
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05 Dec 2011, 12:19 pm

Today's front page of the Daily Wail has it that McKinnon is an "Asperger's victim":

I'm not sure I'm happy with that phraseology personally.

Wolfheart
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05 Dec 2011, 12:31 pm

Tequila wrote:

Today's front page of the Daily Wail has it that McKinnon is an "Asperger's victim":

I'm not sure I'm happy with that phraseology personally.

I'm not very happy with it either but it's the Daily mail. You can't really expect much from them, at least they aren't as bad as The Sun.

readingbetweenlines
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05 Dec 2011, 12:47 pm

Are people disputing his diagnosis or that his special interest may have taken him too far? Innocent until proven guilty I would have thought?

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squonk
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05 Dec 2011, 1:44 pm

I think Wolfheart makes some excellent points, particularly regarding the media and how they view autistic people, like us.

Who would I be to 'dispute' the diagnosis of McKinnon? I can't do that but I can question its validity and more particularly, its timing.

nemorosa
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05 Dec 2011, 2:35 pm

Wolfheart wrote:

Also technically, If you're on a US domain then you must abide by US computer laws, because your computer access is in the US, not the UK so it does make sense if he is persecuted in the US.

That's just plain daft. He was on sovereign UK territory when he committed the 'crime'. We already have legislation such as the Computer Misuse Act to prosecute in these circumstances.

Should people from the UK be hauled before the courts with the threat of extradition every time they do something which happens to be illegal in the US? Absurd.

I could understand the US authorities wanting him if he'd done his hacking whilst staying over there and fled back to the UK to avoid justice. That is the purpose of extradition treaties.

I really don't understand the craven attitude here in the UK; this extradition request should have been kicked out of court for the sorry joke it is long ago.

readingbetweenlines
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05 Dec 2011, 4:52 pm

squonk wrote:

Oh I agree about the points that are being made about media coverage. Unfortunately being helpful to the debate is not what tabloids are about, but aboutt shifting copies and as the Leveson enquiry shows they frequently don't care about truth or decency.

But I am wondering about the diagnosis angle. In an attempt to educate myself about the value of adult diagnosis (not for me) for someone >50 the NAS website at that time (about 2 years ago) seemed to say that if the person was making a living, was not seeking benefits and was not in trouble with the law then the value of a dx was limited. What I'm trying to work round to, it seems quite possible to me to go undiagnosed until you get in trouble with the law if you live as part of a family that does not push you out of the nest, as it were.

I am not saying that is what happened in Gary McKinnon's case. I don't know. But as a historical sequence I can imagine that happening. And if there is a dx then is it not human nature, at least for the immediate family, to try and use it, if not as a defence then in mitigation? Just a thought.

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Tequila
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05 Dec 2011, 4:56 pm

readingbetweenlines wrote:

Unfortunately being helpful to the debate is not what tabloids are about, but aboutt shifting copies.

And this is how they're dying a slow death.

Ambivalence
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05 Dec 2011, 6:00 pm

squonk wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

Thanks Wolfheart, just as I thought. All a bit too convenient.

You are saying that Baron-Cohen et al are lying or incompetent, then. Why?

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adifferentname
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05 Dec 2011, 6:22 pm

Ambivalence wrote:

squonk wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

Thanks Wolfheart, just as I thought. All a bit too convenient.

You are saying that Baron-Cohen et al are lying or incompetent, then. Why?

There's nothing "convenient" about being diagnosed with AS, whatever your circumstances.

As it happens, Mckinnon didn't seek a diagnosis of Asperger's in a bid to score points in his legal proceedings. He was diagnosed after a random aspie saw him interviewed on television and contacted his legal team saying "hey, he seems just like me".

Regardless of all this, the focus of the Mckinnon case should be on the facts of the alleged crime, the extradition laws between the UK and US and the rights of Mckinnon under UK and EU law.

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06 Dec 2011, 4:04 pm

squonk wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

Thanks Wolfheart, just as I thought. All a bit too convenient. Same as a couple of years ago here a man molested boys and suddenly 'discovered' he had a form of autism. Plausible but all too convenient. I have Asperger's. But I am able to knoaw right from wrong. I would never fall back on my condition as some kind of excuse but the condition can contribute 'reasons' why people can and aren't [obv] able to do certain things.

I used to have some doubts about the Mckinnon story because I thought that it was a hoax or something. I'm still not completely sure to be honest but lets assume that it is a true story for the sake of this topic.

I don't know Mckinnon but I think that he knows the difference between right and wrong. My theory is that he became obsessed with the question if there are other life forms in the universe. If someone with Aspergers gets obsessed with something he (or she) goes to great lengths to satisfy that obsession whilst losing all contact with reality and day to day life in the meantime.

I think that the USA should stop fussing about Mckinnon. He is probably not the only one who has hacked into the Pentagon and the NASA, he is just one of the few people that got caught. The USA should take a good look at itself because they obviously not capable of securing computersystems and databases in a professional manner.

Mckinnon has clearly got some talents when it comes to computing and those talents should be put to good use. Imprisoning someone because of his actions (that are caused by a disability) is NOT the way to go.

Last edited by pokerface on 07 Dec 2011, 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

squonk
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07 Dec 2011, 4:36 am

readingbetweenlines wrote:

What I'm trying to work round to, it seems quite possible to me to go undiagnosed until you get in trouble with the law if you live as part of a family that does not push you out of the nest, as it were.

Quite.

And I think pokerface [above post] also makes some excellent points.

squonk
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07 Dec 2011, 4:44 am

Ambivalence wrote:

squonk wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

Thanks Wolfheart, just as I thought. All a bit too convenient.

You are saying that Baron-Cohen et al are lying or incompetent, then. Why?

You will find that I have not written that anywhere.

I'm looking not just at this but other cases I have read where Asperger's has and seems to be being used as some kind of excuse for a misdemeanor, usually discovered after the event.

As for Baron-Cohen and any other professional in any walk of life, mistakes can also be made. Of course there is incompetence in any given field. So your statement and insinuation is imperfect.

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