Autism and the Dutch
21 Jun 2012, 11:50 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_cust ... _etiquette
For an argument I was having with someone saying there were no distinct parts of culture that could be ascribed to the Dutch, I found a list of Dutch customs and etiquette on Wikipedia. While reading through the list, I certainly recognised the behaviour I've been raised to show, but there's a bit more. When reading through it, a lot of these characteristics could easily apply to people with some form of autism.
Here are some examples.
*When entering a doctor's office, a pharmacy or any waiting room where other people are present, the Dutch 'greet the room' as they enter with a general "good day/morning/evening". The Dutch are very conscientious of who arrived in what order and will wait patiently to be served in that same order. Jumping line will lead to frowning and, most likely, a verbal reprimand on the spot.
*It is considered impolite (not to mention illegal) to enter a house without being invited to. The Dutch consider it a severe invasion of privacy. This even applies to close friends and neighbours. Similarly, it is considered inappropriate behaviour to enter someone's garden except for the purpose of walking up to the front door.
*Compared to most cultures, the Dutch are reserved in public and do not often touch each other or display anger or extreme exuberance.
*In most cases the Dutch will make it clear beforehand who intends to pay the bill. If not, the arrangement is assumed to be "go Dutch". No one will be embarrassed at splitting the bill, which is the norm. Often no time is taken to find out how much each person should pay. Simply dividing the bill by the number of people present is more common.
*Guests should not expect a meal unless the invitation mentions it. It is impolite to stay until dinnertime. Dinner is often considered a family or private moment. Usually only family or the closest of friends may join without asking.
*The Dutch avoid superlatives. Compliments are offered sparingly. When something is "not bad", "okay" or "nice", it should be perceived as praise for the recipient.
*Discussing expensive items purchased recently (or anything similar) will be seen as boasting. Asking personal questions is equally dangerous, as the Dutch are private and feel uncomfortable answering questions they deem too personal. These problems can be avoided at least partially by acknowledging in advance that a question is rude or intrusive. One can ask permission to ask the question anyway if there is real need. This leaves the other person the opportunity to refuse to answer. If so, it is considered extremely rude to ask the question anyway.
*The Dutch don't have a problem with saying No directly to someone's face. This is not considered impolite, but simply honest.
*The Dutch take punctuality for business meetings seriously and expect others will do likewise; it is wise to call with an explanation if you are delayed for more than five minutes. Lateness, missed appointments, postponements, changing the time of an appointment or a late delivery lessens trust and can ruin relationships.
*The Dutch tend to be direct, giving straight "yes and no" answers. They are conservative and forceful and can be stubborn and tough negotiators. They are willing to innovate or experiment, but with minimal risk.
*Traffic rules state that vehicles have to drive in the right-most available lane. Unnecessarily staying in the left lane for too long may lead to a fine. It may also result in tailgating and/or overtaking on the right-hand side, both of which are forbidden and therefore finable as well.
*It is not considered deviant to smile or show signs of mirth on the street, but outright laughter is rare. Similarly, public displays of grief are considered bad form.
*The Dutch value personal space and tend to avoid physical contact even among friends. When standing in a group, or when talking to one another, they tend to keep a rather large distance.
Brief analysis
These are the most distinctly autistic traits I was able to find. There are some things that are decidedly un-autistic, but they're un-autistic to such an extreme that they're autistic, such as looking into people's eyes being something you're often forced to do to such an extreme that it becomes a staring contest where neither party is feeling comfortable, but both parties are still staring.
I've noticed something similar in German culture. They're even more reserved, and sometimes they'll only start speaking in a friendly rather than formal way after years. Do you think there's something autistic in Dutch and German culture?
21 Jun 2012, 12:10 pm
I'm Belgian, the Netherlands is a neighbour country, and I'm quite sure this is a bit stereotyped / exaggerated... I could find SOME people (usually aspies) that are indeed like this, but I wouldn't really think of it being typical to Dutch people or other neighbours.
Last edited by Aviator on 21 Jun 2012, 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
21 Jun 2012, 12:53 pm
@HisDivineMajesty: there was a thread not too long ago here on WP, about whether or not the Germans "are autistic".
Having just read through this list of Dutch customs, I personally feel that the key word is 'relative' here. While the wikipedia article was probably compiled by mostly Dutch users, it was made with the customs of non-Dutch readers in mind, i.e. the customs are presented relative to other cultures. I'm not sure how you experience it in practice, but I find that Dutch social customs in general aren't necessarily easy for me to relate to or understand.
Of course, something that plays a role in this, is that I was raised by a mother who is the child of two Indos from Java. So, I grew up with a very Indonesian-flavoured version of Dutch culture, which means that some of the customs that are considered 'Dutch proper' or 'indigenous Dutch', are almost as alien to me as they would be to, say, a Thai or a Viet.
In practice, I find that Dutch culture in general is quite hierarchy-conscious... and also very, very materialistic. I do not recognise the part that says
I honestly do not. I find that, in Dutch society, people make quite a big deal of what education level someone has (VMBO, HAVO, VWO; MBO, HBO, or University), and tied to this, what kind of job someone has, and the amount of money someone is making, the kind/size/value of house someone rents or owns, the car one drives, the TV one owns, etc. It doesn't cease to amaze me, that most people I encounter first ask me about my education and my job, instead of something more significant to my person/character, such as my hobbies or interests, or how I spend my spare time. It's almost as if people here in Holland are constantly gauging each other for their position on the "social ladder".
Of course, plenty of people care nothing for that, but I honestly consider it refreshing every time I meet someone who's like that.
Well, that's my little rant about hierarchy, but aside from that, I find that Dutch social norms are a bit more jovial and gregarious than they are presented in the Wikipedia article. There's a lot of elbowroom in informal social settings, and I find that a social setting becomes informal rather fast here in the NL. Regional differences should be taken into account. I spent my childhood in Noord-Brabant, and now I live in the Randstad, where life moves at a faster pace, and people in general are, in my opinion, more tolerant of each other simply because everybody basically lives on each other's necks, that's how high the population density is. I also find that Randstedelingen (or perhaps I should say Amsterdammers) in general look outward into the world. Back in Brabant, the world was kind of limited to the village I was living in, and this was reflected in the outlook of most people.
Of course, those are gross generalisations. I loved living in Brabant, and I'm even considering going back there. Point I was trying to make is, it will make a difference to interact with the average Brabander or Limburger, compared to a Frisian or a Groninger. And Holland is different still.
_________________
clarity of thought before rashness of action
21 Jun 2012, 1:43 pm
For an argument I was having with someone saying there were no distinct parts of culture that could be ascribed to the Dutch, I found a list of Dutch customs and etiquette on Wikipedia. While reading through the list, I certainly recognised the behaviour I've been raised to show, but there's a bit more. When reading through it, a lot of these characteristics could easily apply to people with some form of autism.
Here are some examples.
*When entering a doctor's office, a pharmacy or any waiting room where other people are present, the Dutch 'greet the room' as they enter with a general "good day/morning/evening". The Dutch are very conscientious of who arrived in what order and will wait patiently to be served in that same order. Jumping line will lead to frowning and, most likely, a verbal reprimand on the spot.
*It is considered impolite (not to mention illegal) to enter a house without being invited to. The Dutch consider it a severe invasion of privacy. This even applies to close friends and neighbours. Similarly, it is considered inappropriate behaviour to enter someone's garden except for the purpose of walking up to the front door.
*Compared to most cultures, the Dutch are reserved in public and do not often touch each other or display anger or extreme exuberance.
*In most cases the Dutch will make it clear beforehand who intends to pay the bill. If not, the arrangement is assumed to be "go Dutch". No one will be embarrassed at splitting the bill, which is the norm. Often no time is taken to find out how much each person should pay. Simply dividing the bill by the number of people present is more common.
*Guests should not expect a meal unless the invitation mentions it. It is impolite to stay until dinnertime. Dinner is often considered a family or private moment. Usually only family or the closest of friends may join without asking.
*The Dutch avoid superlatives. Compliments are offered sparingly. When something is "not bad", "okay" or "nice", it should be perceived as praise for the recipient.
*Discussing expensive items purchased recently (or anything similar) will be seen as boasting. Asking personal questions is equally dangerous, as the Dutch are private and feel uncomfortable answering questions they deem too personal. These problems can be avoided at least partially by acknowledging in advance that a question is rude or intrusive. One can ask permission to ask the question anyway if there is real need. This leaves the other person the opportunity to refuse to answer. If so, it is considered extremely rude to ask the question anyway.
*The Dutch don't have a problem with saying No directly to someone's face. This is not considered impolite, but simply honest.
*The Dutch take punctuality for business meetings seriously and expect others will do likewise; it is wise to call with an explanation if you are delayed for more than five minutes. Lateness, missed appointments, postponements, changing the time of an appointment or a late delivery lessens trust and can ruin relationships.
*The Dutch tend to be direct, giving straight "yes and no" answers. They are conservative and forceful and can be stubborn and tough negotiators. They are willing to innovate or experiment, but with minimal risk.
*Traffic rules state that vehicles have to drive in the right-most available lane. Unnecessarily staying in the left lane for too long may lead to a fine. It may also result in tailgating and/or overtaking on the right-hand side, both of which are forbidden and therefore finable as well.
*It is not considered deviant to smile or show signs of mirth on the street, but outright laughter is rare. Similarly, public displays of grief are considered bad form.
*The Dutch value personal space and tend to avoid physical contact even among friends. When standing in a group, or when talking to one another, they tend to keep a rather large distance.
Brief analysis
These are the most distinctly autistic traits I was able to find. There are some things that are decidedly un-autistic, but they're un-autistic to such an extreme that they're autistic, such as looking into people's eyes being something you're often forced to do to such an extreme that it becomes a staring contest where neither party is feeling comfortable, but both parties are still staring.
I've noticed something similarr in German culture. They're even more reserved, and sometimes they'll only start speaking in a friendly rather than formal way after years. Do you think there's something autistic in Dutch and German culture?
There is truth in some of the characteristics you described here but certainly not in all of them. Not to mention the fact that they are a bunch of stereotypes ofcourse.
I don't think that the dutch are conservative at all. Holland has always been a liberal country and that is an aspect about dutch society I find appealing. I think that conservatism is nothing more than a narrow minded fear of changes, new developments and anxiety about loss of power by a small elitist minority. The dutch are not like that thank god!
What I also like about the dutch society is the fact that the differences between the social classes is not as ridiculously extreme as in Brittain for instance, so put your hands toghether for the dutch because that is a great and important achievement.
I think it's true that the dutch can be direct and honest but at the same time they have a tendancy to hide their private thoughts and emotions from people they don't know very well. They don't have that odd 'stiff upper lip' that the Brittish seem to have but they are not that far from it either. The dutch are down to earth and kinda middle of the road. They don't like to display their feelings and emotions in the same way that southern europeans like to do for instance. That aspect of the dutch can come across as cold and uncaring. I see some similarities with people in northern parts of the world, like Scandinavia, in that regard. Dutch people don't seem to have the same temperament as people from southern parts of the world but the depth of their emotions makes up for that lack of public display. Last but not least; dutch people are not drawn by extreme ideas and ideologies which I consider to be a pro as well.
What I don't like about living in Holland is the fact that I find life a bit boring and flat here but that's the price we have to pay here for all of that common sense.
Well, that was my list of totally useless stereotypes.
Does anyone else want to have a go at it?
21 Jun 2012, 2:45 pm
I think it's true that the dutch can be direct and honest but at the same time they have a tendancy to hide their private thoughts and emotions from people they don't know very well. They don't have that odd 'stiff upper lip' that the Brittish seem to have but they are not that far from it either. The dutch are down to earth and kinda middle of the road. They don't like to display their feelings and emotions in the same way that southern europeans like to do for instance. That aspect of the dutch can come across as cold and uncaring. I see some similarities with people in northern parts of the world, like Scandinavia, in that regard. Dutch people don't seem to have the same temperament as people from southern parts of the world but the depth of their emotions makes up for that lack of public display. Last but not least; dutch people are not drawn by extreme ideas and ideologies which I consider to be a pro as well.
I think pretty much this whole paragraph is accurate, and corresponds with my own observations.
I can, however, get quite upset with the popularity a man like Geert Wilders has been able to garner in recent years, and the (recent?) tendency of the Dutch to run along with a hype. Seems that, when a certain opinion is repeatedly vented in the media, people will parrot it, and insist that it's a truth. Reminds me of that old Jem song: "And it's ironic too/'Cause what we tend to do/Is act on what they say/And then it is that way".
For a supposedly rational people, many Dutch have been listening to their 'underbelly' a bit too much in recent years, in my opinion.
_________________
clarity of thought before rashness of action
21 Jun 2012, 2:50 pm
The average Dutch is certainly not autistic. They are rather outgoing people. Belgians are a little more "autistic".
The values expressed by Dutch society steem from a Calvinist/Protestant heritage. Ascetism, being a "miser", etc...
Countries that would be "autistic": Japan and Finland.
21 Jun 2012, 2:59 pm
I think it's true that the dutch can be direct and honest but at the same time they have a tendancy to hide their private thoughts and emotions from people they don't know very well. They don't have that odd 'stiff upper lip' that the Brittish seem to have but they are not that far from it either. The dutch are down to earth and kinda middle of the road. They don't like to display their feelings and emotions in the same way that southern europeans like to do for instance. That aspect of the dutch can come across as cold and uncaring. I see some similarities with people in northern parts of the world, like Scandinavia, in that regard. Dutch people don't seem to have the same temperament as people from southern parts of the world but the depth of their emotions makes up for that lack of public display. Last but not least; dutch people are not drawn by extreme ideas and ideologies which I consider to be a pro as well.
I think pretty much this whole paragraph is accurate, and corresponds with my own observations.
I can, however, get quite upset with the popularity a man like Geert Wilders has been able to garner in recent years, and the (recent?) tendency of the Dutch to run along with a hype. Seems that, when a certain opinion is repeatedly vented in the media, people will parrot it, and insist that it's a truth. Reminds me of that old Jem song: [i]"And it's ironic too/'Cause what we tend to do/Is act on what they say/And then it is that way".[/
For a supposedly rational people, many Dutch have beetn listening to their 'underbelly' a bit too much in recent years, in my opinion.
Geert Wilders is a paranoid and obesessed man. A populist and a scaremonger.
Sometimes I even think that he must have aspergers as well because he seems to be totally fixated on one subject.
The dutch govenment recently fell because of him so I don't think he has a chance of ever being a member of the govenment again.
I do think that the underbellies of a lot of dutch people need to be addressed though and that can only be done by honest and direct communication.
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