Justice ?

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“Saddam Hussein deserves no one’s pity. But as anyone who has seen the graphic cellphone video of his hanging can testify, his execution bore little resemblance to dispassionate, state-administered justice.” Oh the NYT, the NYT! Who said that there is no man or woman who deserves no pity in any moment of their life? What is the “dispassionate state-administered justice?” The lethal injection, electrocution, a nice ceremonial hanging, guillotining assisted by judges wearing top-hats like in nazy Germany? No: the whole thing, in any circumstance, at any latitude is horror, horror, as Joseph Conrad used to say, the horror of "civilization" brought about under the even-handed fashion of the NYT editorial writers or in a cruder way.
Any kind of “execution”, that is a formalized killing of a powerless prisoner is for me unbearable. I may have understanding for revenge, not for these travesties of justice. I post it here and not in “current events” because my reaction might be part of my anomalous feeling.

Last edited by paolo on 04 Jan 2007, 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Despite being anti-death penalty, I certainly won't loose any sleep over him.
I'd say it's probably not related anomalous feeling though, lots of people find killing someone unacceptable under any circumstances.

While, I heard about this at the airport. My next sttaement was "NOW all they have to do is find and torture UBL. They can't just kill him because his followers will think he was simply sent to heaven.".

Steve

I don't shed a tear for Sadam. Sadam lived by the sword and died by the sword. Such is to be expected.

What I do shed a tear for is 'us', the Western world. I watch the news and see smiling reporters speak of a man being executed without any real trial and I see them do so with a smile. This saddens me. While I can often see situations where the distasteful is necessary it is always sad when we then clap ourselves on the back and tell ourselves how good it is that we've done it. This is a side of the human race that I'd rather not see.


As for whether this sentiment is related to Aspergers, possibly but only by correlation. Attachement to 'Justice' and 'Fairness' as absolutes to be valued beyond their rhetorical usages and subjective social redefinitions is higher among those with Aspergers than those without. This is by no means absolute.

It’s not problem of shedding tears or not. As for shedding tears, we should use up all our tear glands for the millions of Asiatic children sold to brothels for western consumption and for so many other things that would feel a miles long list. And for all the suffering and cruelty in the world as we know it.

I thing also to the treatment reserved to Vergingentorix by Julius Caesar, who got Vergingetorix surrender in change for the safety of his kinship (Vercingetorix was certainly no Saddam). Caesar kept Vercingetorix in jail in Rome for five years, only in order to have him strangled in the ceremony of his “triumph”. Caesar was also one of the first perpetrators of genocides. He colbloodedly had the entire population of Bourges (40.000) killed as a reprisal for Vercigetorix’s rebellion.

My reaction here was to this idea of “clean” executions expressed in the NYT leader. There are no “clean” executions. And there are other horrid things also: the competitions of the media to have this video to offer to their public. The NYT s’ splashed the photo of Saddam with his head in the noose in front page.

I'm not exactly for the death penalty either. I don't particularly like the way it was televised either. Yes I know he was executed, but I didn't need to see the 'before' and 'after' pics!! !

However, I won't really lose any sleep over the fact that he was executed, as he is a killer himself, a very wicked man. But part of believes that two wrongs don't make a right.

1) Saddam was nearly 70 years old. Iraqi law forbids the execution of anyone over 70 years old. They killed him in a rush because they wanted to kill him before Iraqi laws meddle. By the way, they killed him in the day of Eid, a holiday symbolic for forgiveness. Except in Iran (another enemy of Iran went down) Muslims were pissed because of this poor choice.

2) There a lot of Iraqi blogs. Baghdad Burning (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/) says about the trial:

<<<Everyone expected this verdict from the very first day of the trial. There was a brief interlude when, with the first judge, it was thought that it might actually be a coherent trial where Iraqis could hear explanations and see what happened. That was soon over with the prosecution’s first false witness. Events that followed were so ridiculous; it’s difficult to believe them even now.

The sound would suddenly disappear when the defense or one of the defendants got up to speak. We would hear the witnesses but no one could see them- hidden behind a curtain, their voices were changed. People who were supposed to have been dead in the Dujail incident were found to be very alive.

Judge after judge was brought in because the ones in court were seen as too fair. They didn’t instantly condemn the defendants (even if only for the sake of the media). The piece de resistance was the final judge they brought in. His reputation vies only that of Chalabi- a well-known thief and murderer who ran away to Iran to escape not political condemnation, but his father’s wrath after he stole from the restaurant his father ran.>>>

The trial wasn't fair. Probably it wasn't fair because the same people who did it (who by the way are those also making the charges) said it shouldn't be fair to prosecute him, so they did a non-fair prosecution. And they did it exactly in a way that enraged Muslims, although they could be viewed as pro-Saddam for being enraged.

3) Experts warned Iraq would have become a quagmire. Experts warned Saddam could became a martyr. Despite Saddam had some secular views, and most of his government were Shia, now Iraq is torn in a civil war between Shia (who are tied with Iran) and Sunni (who represents the majority of Muslims but the minority in Iran). The fact Iranians rejoiced at Saddam's death during Eid alienated some support to Iran from the Arab world. Saddam's death scene may have been intentionally leaked. I mean, wouldn't someone filming the scene be caught while doing it?

So, my personal opinion. I don't have personal reason to hate Saddam, so I don't enjoy his death. Also, I don't enjoy his unfair trial; unfair trial usually means false charges, and I haven't any trust in what US says. Finally, I don't enjoy they always chose the most blatant way to stir war in the Middle East.

One side-effect of it that I found interesting was an article a day or three ago in CNN about some 10-year old who, after seeing the news footage of the execution, decided it'd be fun to play with a noose... and hung himself.
To which I say, good riddance and thank you for removing yourself from the gene pool.
Of course, the parents went on about how great a kid he was and how big a tragedy it was, etc., but, y'know, if you can't figure out at age 10 that playing with a noose is stupid then perhaps you're just too dumb to live and maybe, just maybe, it's better to get it over with sooner, rather than later.
And before someone jumps my ass for not taking into consideration the possibility of retardation on the kids part, I say to you a) the article made no mention of it, and b) it's pretty obvious that he's ... well, was... ret*d. In either a literal or a pejorative sense.

back to the topic at hand... I was wondering why they seemed to be so on-the-ball as far as killing Saddam. That's kind of a stupid law... if an 80-year old commits an offense worthy of the death penalty, how is that any different from a 70-year old? what, he's 10 years closer to a "natural" death? Big deal.

The execution was carried out in a very poor way. The trial, if anything, gave Saddam Hussein too much of an opportunity to spout slogans touting that he was still the true ruler of Iraq. Still, I think it was important to demonstrate that a willingness to actual give him a trial rather then shoot him in the head or torture him to death as per the usual style of the region.

The average Iraqi wanted Saddam to die. Most of the population was victimized by his brutalities.



There are other Iraqi blogs.

Did you expect Saddam to be found NOT GUILTY?! So the witnesses that testified to the murder of a hundred of something people were liars? Why did they make it up then? It's not like they had to, Saddam ordered killings of large numbers of people all the time!



I didn't see the trial because it was (stupidly) not given much coverage at all in the United States, so I am not sure what this is in reference to, but it is possible whatever this is was designed for the witnesses protection. While I don't like the idea of people testifying behind curtains in the US, I can understand the nervousness in a trial like this.



Not everyone was wiped out. This is not unusual in a massacre.



Also because of assassinations of court personal by insurgents. I do admit that one or two judges were annoyed, with the interference from the government. How does this person know they didn't just condemn him for the sake of the media?



This person doesn't give an example of condemning the final judge but instead gives examples re: Ahmad Chalabi. Still, is there any proof that Chalabi is a murderer? (There are allegations of theft I am aware, although these may have been political). In addition, rumors were spread by the Baathist government about Chalabi after he fled the country. Shouldn't we be cautious into buying into these rumors (regardless on how you stand on the war)?



What would have been a "fair" trial in a country that has a history of summary executions, and a man who is undoubtedly guilty? I mean, honestly, people say it is unrealistic to expect democracy yet we should get angry because it wasn't a fair trial and Saddam was taunted while he was hanged (apparently painlessly)?

I acknowledge again that the hanging was conducted in a poor manner, and there will be blow back for it.



Experts say many different things since there are so many different experts. In America if I watch CNN I get experts that say different things that if I watch Fox News. Even military experts with degrees in military affairs say different things. One expert says do X, while one expert says do Y.

All experts did not say Iraq would become a quagmire, if fact the mess that has developed during the occupation was not really predicted. What was predicted by many "experts" was that the US would easily invade the Iraq and then get involved in a Stalingrad type battle for Baghdad that could cost tens of thousands of American lives. This never occurred either. Experts don't always know.

Some experts are saying that Saddam will become a martyr. I tend to think Saddam will soon become forgotten, and it is better to have him in the ground then him ranting and raving.



Saddam's government was Sunni dominated, and they got most of the rewards of his control. This is why they are most resistance to a multi-faceted government.



The execution was filmed a couple of cell phones or something like that, so it is easy to hide. Plus it was a badly botched operation (note the execution itself, but the people around it).



So you don't hate Saddam (I try not to hate people either BTW), and you regard the charges that he murdered people as false. Saddam killed upwards of a million people. On the other hand you obviously don't buy anything the U.S. says (even if it is simply reporting human rights violations, which it does to it's own allies?)

The Iraqis executed Saddam not the United States. The tape belonged to them. Why would Iraq want war with Iran, now? Why would Iran (although there already have people in Iraq causing trouble which actually grounds for war)? In fact, why would the United States want war with Iran, now? Why would this make the government of any middle east country start a war with Iraq (? Maybe some people might get angry but they don't run the government, and the people in charge would be insane to actually try to invade Iraq now with US forces in country.

...
...Welcome to the board.