Is ruthless workplace bullying reasonable?

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Is systemic and ruthless workplace bullying "resonable"?
Yes 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
No 100%  100%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 16

sdtruffet
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22 Jan 2021, 5:57 am

Queensland has argued that systemic and ruthless workplace bullying is reasonable.

And if an Asperger's is subjected to 6+ months of this and melts down, then it is the fault of the Asperger's and not the management.

Please go to youtube and watch two below videos before answing poll:
/watch?v=mywpKd8XmPw
/watch?v=q9D8tk1cdXU

Queensland Industrial Relations Commission found it diffrent to what I expect in the below poll.



autisticelders
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22 Jan 2021, 7:00 am

didn't take the poll. that's sad. I disagree with that ruling, but I have been bullied on the job all my life, every job, and never understood why until I learned of my autism. I brought a lot of it on myself without knowing it and I certainly did not understand why until I found out about being autistic. I am not blaming the victim , I am not condoning abuse but now at least I can comprehend some of it. Not saying bullying is ever right, either, just that now I know I am autistic I can see why people became exasperated or frustrated with me ... no answers. It is just plain sad. :(


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22 Jan 2021, 8:20 am

autisticelders wrote:
didn't take the poll. that's sad. I disagree with that ruling, but I have been bullied on the job all my life, every job, and never understood why until I learned of my autism. I brought a lot of it on myself without knowing it and I certainly did not understand why until I found out about being autistic. I am not blaming the victim , I am not condoning abuse but now at least I can comprehend some of it. Not saying bullying is ever right, either, just that now I know I am autistic I can see why people became exasperated or frustrated with me ... no answers. It is just plain sad. :(


Don't offer people an excuse to bully you. Even if people do get exasperated with you, that's no excuse to bully. Nobody has the right to bully. I hate bullying.

I can be exasperating or frustrating at times but people don't bully me at work.


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22 Jan 2021, 8:43 am

Bullies are usually cowards who find those who are weak because they are unlikely to retaliate.

They are often dissuaded by a show of strength. Children can sometimes get away with using physical strength, otherwise verbal strength or legal strength can be used.

In the US there is a phrase "hostile work place". This came into parlance with the effort to reduce the sexual exploitation of women at work. However, it might also be employed to counter other "hostility".

The most effective strength to use against a bully might be holding them accountable in front of others for their actions. For example;

"Are you so much like a dog that has to urinate on others to mark his territory. Perhaps you are so dim as to be unaware that your abusive behavior is bullying. I can only imagine the deficiencies of your childhood. However, the best path for you is healing rather than perpetuating abuse."



Joe90
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22 Jan 2021, 9:17 am

I was picked on at the volunteer job I used to do about 10 years ago. I left because of it (thankfully it wasn't a paying job). The boss who ran the place, and a couple of the volunteers, started picking on me because of a small, harmless quirk of mine. Nobody else there cared about this quirk, it was just these 3 women being bitchy. They'd sit and whisper or make faces about me like a bunch of schoolgirls - and these were women in their 60s. They would talk about me behind my back and they planned on calling me out on my quirk by humiliating me. I could tell it was planned.

And I was supposed to be there to help build my confidence, as I was looking for paid work at the time. But it wasn't just me these 3 women picked on. The boss there had favourites, and I obviously wasn't one of her favourites. Her favourite people couldn't see the bad side of her, but her non-favourites could, which was why they left - which left me surrounded by people that kissed her ass. She knew that and decided to pick on me more, and that was why I walked out in the end. It was their loss, as I was a good volunteer.

The bullying was very subtle. Some Aspies might have not been able to suss it out, but I did. I'm quite good at analyzing people's behaviour no matter how subtle it is. I can see patterns and then work out people's intentions.


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diagnosedafter50
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22 Jan 2021, 9:57 am

No but we have a duty to ourselves not to let ourselves get bullied.
It starts in childhood by showing people they cannot bully us.
I failed in this duty, I feel the need to mention this as I don't want to sound hypocritical.



diagnosedafter50
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22 Jan 2021, 9:59 am

sdtruffet wrote:
Queensland has argued that systemic and ruthless workplace bullying is reasonable.

And if an Asperger's is subjected to 6+ months of this and melts down, then it is the fault of the Asperger's and not the management.

Please go to youtube and watch two below videos before answing poll:
/watch?v=mywpKd8XmPw
/watch?v=q9D8tk1cdXU

Queensland Industrial Relations Commission found it diffrent to what I expect in the below poll.

The links don't work.
Only a madman would say that bullying is reasonable.
Bullies are cowards.
I think this policy is actually illegal.



Jiheisho
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22 Jan 2021, 10:21 am

Laws generally address discrimination and not bullying. If your boss is an a$$h0l3 to everyone equally, that is OK. The idea is you can always leave if you don't like the working conditions. I am not condoning bullying, I have had plenty of that in my career, but that is the way the world works...



sdtruffet
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22 Jan 2021, 6:57 pm

diagnosedafter50 wrote:
The links don't work.
Only a madman would say that bullying is reasonable.
Bullies are cowards.
I think this policy is actually illegal.


As is I have been through 3 years of hell and seen others hosptilised as a result of the ongoing bullying at the same employer. They now have updated their tactics to target known weaknesses of Aspi's

Sorry about the youtube link not working, have not been a member long enough to post actual urls.

Please visit www(dot)youtube(dot)com and then add:

/watch?v=q9D8tk1cdXU

/watch?v=mywpKd8XmPw

to the end to watch the above to.

(again sorry, but wrong plannet won't let me post URLs



diagnosedafter50
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22 Jan 2021, 7:33 pm

sdtruffet wrote:
diagnosedafter50 wrote:
The links don't work.
Only a madman would say that bullying is reasonable.
Bullies are cowards.
I think this policy is actually illegal.


As is I have been through 3 years of hell and seen others hosptilised as a result of the ongoing bullying at the same employer. They now have updated their tactics to target known weaknesses of Aspi's

Sorry about the youtube link not working, have not been a member long enough to post actual urls.

Please visit www(dot)youtube(dot)com and then add:

/watch?v=q9D8tk1cdXU

/watch?v=mywpKd8XmPw

to the end to watch the above to.

(again sorry, but wrong plannet won't let me post URLs

I would look for another job. I am sorry you have been through 3 years of hell, but stay there and there will be more to come.
Would an employer physically injure an employee to the extent that they had to go to hospital? No
Then they should not be emotionally/mentally injuring employees so they are hospitalised, especially vulnerable ones, and I am sorry that you have seen this happen.
I would also seek independent legal advice from an employment related lawyer.
It cannot be legal, to me it seems a form of injury and exploitation of vulnerable workers, which, simply, should not be going on in the 21st Century.
I found it a bit overwhelming to watch the first video and listen to the audio.
I caught crash and burn spectacularly.
2nd video clearer, poor man having a meltdown. It's really distressing to hear the man go into a meltdown and sob. He struggles to get his words out then breaks down. This is no place to work. Employees there should be looking for other jobs and seeking advice from lawyers, this just cannot be legal. He said he had been a consultant for 25 years and the conditions forced on him seemed untenable. Turned into a recluse. A doctor reduced to this. It's an abomination.
Some workplaces are completely destructive. I don't know how the employer can see it reasonable to "punish" this employee who wants to be a productive member of society not a housebound recluse.
The videos even mention injury.
It's this bit I find distressing
Quote:
They now have updated their tactics to target known weaknesses of Aspi's

Words fail me, what if the affected employees leave? these bullies will find others to pick on, what if they leave? they will find new ones to pick on and then there will be very few left, this company will get a bad reputation surely.
I'm gobsmacked.



CockneyRebel
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22 Jan 2021, 8:01 pm

It's never reasonable. I was bullied at a factory that I worked in during the Mid-Late 90s.


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diagnosedafter50
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22 Jan 2021, 8:07 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
It's never reasonable. I was bullied at a factory that I worked in during the Mid-Late 90s.

:heart: as we don't have a like button on here.



AnonymousAnonymous
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22 Jan 2021, 8:14 pm

Absolutely not.


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sdtruffet
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27 Jan 2021, 7:00 pm

Employer's evidence regarding executive manager:

D4 P34 L11-12 wrote:
I understood it to mean that, you know, David was calling Jeff the bully.


D3 P80 L14-21 wrote:
So firstly, workplace bullying and Geoff Robinson, Geoff is a Brisbane-based executive who hired me into the business. He has, I would say, a tough managerial style. He was very wellknown for being a manager who he could sometimes be quite ruthless, quite frankly. We – my team certainly did see me getting on the wrong side of Geoff at times, so they potentially will have seen me under pressure taking some criticism from Geoff at time to time. But, you know, it’s a different thing to talk about workplace bullying. This was out in the open and it was direct,


D3 P80 L35-36 wrote:
He – he’s a tough – he’s a tough guy and he’s well-respected and well-known to be that way.


D4 P34 L41-44 wrote:
As I said, Jeff’s a tough manager. Jeff is known – is – is – I’m probably making him sound a little comical. But a lot of the technical team, you know, had been berated by Jeff at one point or another, which I suspect is why the reference to bullying is – is mentioned there.


D4 P79 L19-29 wrote:
COMMISSIONER: What do you mean by coaching?---Jeff had a very blunt way of telling you that you’d done the wrong thing, and I certainly remember, you know, a morning where I’d come in and Jeff was directing my people on a topic that was just so far into the details below an executive level, like, because Jeff enjoyed being around the IT stuff, and he quickly wanted me to stop doing what I was doing which was preparing for a customer meeting, and when I gave him I think a fairly fiery, “No, we’re not doing this now,” he, you know, pulled rank on me and told me that I wasn’t fit to lead with that attitude and my underlings had heard me getting told I wasn’t fit to lead. So this kind of a thing was not unusual, unfortunately. I found it quite difficult, and it’s likely that that kind of conduct is precisely what David would have known about. Certainly - - -

COMMISSIONER: Mr Truffet, are you – would you like us to adjourn for a few minutes, or - - -
APPELLANT: We’ve got to get through this. I’ll be – give me – just give me a minute. Sorry, it’s – it’s a sensitive topic. I’ll be right.

COMMISSIONER: You feeling okay?


Managment would have gone on about Jeff but the commissioner stopped her due to seeing me in distress.

Also both at the mentions and at the trial just broaching this suject and triggered meltdowns like the one you heared and the commission in each case stopped to proceedings.

The above quotes were managment was trying to defend/justify his conduct, when she was complaining and venting to me how bad his conduct was it was worse and in more detail, and over 6+ months.

Quote:
Yeah?---And it didn’t seem to be being resolved, so I was, in that discussion, explaining that, you know, an executive, regardless of whether they are the berating type or not – and I was remarking it’s not going to be fun - - -



Managment regarding myself:
D4 P30 L10-11 wrote:
I had reviewed the material and that I could see that he was acting to defend others at his own expense.


D3 P84 L44-46 wrote:
the underlying emphasis that David had was that he – you know, that he would kind of metaphorically take a bullet for people to defend them when he saw injustice and that he came off second best as a result


D3 P84 L2-6 wrote:
The information that David provided to me was that he had had colleagues at this past employer who had been bullied or – or unfairly treated and that the narrative he gave me was that he had defended them at his own expense so, like, at the cost of his position I think it was because he – he couldn’t, you know, bear to see them mistreated


And the effects were known for approximatly 3 months before my final meltdown at work.
about 3 months before final meltdown at work wrote:
things were not looking good on that Friday, to be honest. The crying was – you know, that was – he looked like he was in distress.

......

the discussion at the coffee shop where I’d inadvertently, you know, pushed David to the point of crying, it was – you know, the reference to putting the mask back on was David’s. ... And I had apologised to David about that day because I’d – I felt bad about
upsetting him right before work, about a personal issue.

.......

He – at the time I – I was somewhat concerned about suicide risk because of the coming into Christmas period.


I beleive that not having a well known and well regarded ruthless executive manager of the berating type is a reasonable adjustment for not only Aspie's but NTs also.



diagnosedafter50
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28 Jan 2021, 7:12 am

Workplace bullies cost organisations enormous amounts of money and destroy health of workers that may have otherwise been an asset to the company.
These bullies are not always highest grade, yet they can "run the place" because no one wants to get on the wrong side of them.
What gets me is the female manager seemed to express her bullied feelings verbally, when it would have been much more productive to express them in writing so they could have been taken as evidence and have this Jeff character dealt with.
What's the way forward for you now, so that you can live the happy life you deserve?
Change of career?
Own business?
What other options are there for you.



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28 Jan 2021, 8:19 am

I remember being on an NT forum and one guy told the story of how a colleague had began to actively bully a person with ASD, because "everyone was tired of his idiosyncrasies". Apparently, no-one objected. Even some pats-on-the-back.

Got to be vigilant out there.
Never assume people have good intentions just because they project a good face.