right of reply - from the heart

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I'd like to make it clear from the outset that this post is by me as an individual, and not me in my capacity as Moderator. That is, I make no claim whatsoever that anything in this post either reflects or represents the views of any other individual Moderator, or the Moderator group as a whole (whether it actually does or doesn't).

I also have absolutely no quarrel with any member of this board.

I'm posting this as a "Right Of Reply", in order both to give argument to accusations levelled against me (as a Moderator), and to explain my position. I apologise for the long post.

I have been accused of censorship of others' posts. The thought has never even crossed my mind. The only censoring I've done is of myself, when I deleted my comments (about sexist imagery) to a member, as requested by Moderators, and in order to de-fuse a situation. The thread about censorship was posted while this was happening. As far as I'm aware, I'm not actually able to ban anyone, and so the question of me doing so is moot.

I then - along with other Moderators - decided to keep out of the developing argument, again, in order to minimalise conflict.

As I watched the argument unfold, with comments which suggested I was "making a big issue out of nothing", and accusing me of power-mongering, I started to question whether this was, in fact, true. Was I over-reacting? Was I abusing my role as a Moderator? After several hours of this, I suffered a massive crisis of confidence.

And then I started to receive the messages.

They were from women on this board, by IM and PM, from across the age range. And they made me cry. Firstly, because they all agreed that the images are offensive to them, which meant i felt vindicated - it's not just me who thinks this. Secondly, because some described the most horrific and brutal experiences they had suffered, just because they are female. And thirdly, because all of them said thank you for speaking out, because they could not speak out for themselves.

And that made me realise why I do this. Because I can and others can't. I've done it for the best part of 30 years, and - the gods willing - I'll carry on doing it until I die. Because while there is one person without a voice who wants to be heard - whether they're female, black, gay, with AS/ASD, or any other "ism" - then I will speak out.

I'd like you to consider this: if there weren't people like me, with big mouths, who stand up and speak out, and take all the flak that comes back at them, then kids would still be pushed up chimneys, and pushed down mines, to work; black people would still be classed as sub-human; few of us here would be able to afford the education to be literate, let alone afford a computer; and autistic people would be thrown into institutions and left to rot.

I would like this to become a debate, as well as an explanation of me and what I did and do. It is clear that people genuinely do not know what constitutes offensive material. How could any of us know everything like that? I cannot understand what it is to be black, or to be male. I do try to listen when someone from those groups says "That's offensive", because whilst I may not find it so, they do, no matter how trivial I think it is. How can NTs stop offending us if we don't explain to them? And that is why censorship is wrong, because there is no debate, and because no-one learns from it, if it is merely excised from the record.

I shall continue to speak out. And, undoubtedly, I shall continue to be villified for it. But I shall also continue to listen, because that's part of the fight. And the fight is about you and me, not you versus me.

And that's worth fighting for.

Thank you for reading this post.

Vivi
(as herself)

Well uh I like you both. I haven't followed the whole thing...I think GH is self-admittedly melodramatic and needs to vent when he gets confused or misunderstood, he calls it 'bleeding' so he make these posts about whatever is bothering him, then he moves on. I don't always read GHs stories but I think he sometimes posts in a 'bawdy' style that's like a 'send-up' of sci-fi or crime genres, you know how in Star Trek, Captain Kirk is always falling in lust with some guest alien or temporary staff member...

There's a reasonably universal phenomenon where single guys who want to meet women will talk in like a bawdy style, it's a kind of mating ritual, so in a way I'm not sure they see it as offensive. It's a natural 'mating' behaviour to them....

Hope I haven't just added to the confusion, haven't followed the whole thing.

i'm sorry - i didn't made myself clear enough.

this thread is not about any situation, or other person, here on WP - it's about me.

sorry for the misunderstanding, Postperson.

I personally think you are doing an excellant job Vetivert. I'm easily offended, but; I am sometimes afraid to voice my opinion for fear of back-lash so, I just move on.

I am so glad you are a voice for ones on this board who don't know how to express their feelings. I believe you have done well to get a point across in a manner of tact and diplomacy.

First you´re saying something about GH and after that you´re making a comment on men in general.

I´m single and I´m a man, so maybe I´m belonging to the group of men with ´mating´behaviour? Or do I have to change my style of writing to achieve that? As a matter of fact, I don´t think I will meet much women by talking in a bawdy style.

If you think GH is talking in a bawdy style, why don´t you just say to GH he´s talking in a bawdy style and don´t write about this as a general phenomenon? Then you´re making clear how you think about him in particular and he can react on that. If he now reacts on your general statement, you can defend by saying you weren´t talking about him in particular.

Yes, that's a correct observation.



uhm it's a fairly common behaviour here, but I was wrong to ascribe it solely to men, women do it too. I do apologise for that.



oh, it's not solely or particularly how I think of him, an issue came up regarding censorship. I've probably misunderstood Viv's intentions in starting this thread, so maybe people should ignore my post, it seems to be on the wrong tack.



Well I've known Gh as a poster for a while and it wasn't my intention to offend him, you seem to think I may have done that. If he thinks so too, I would like to make it clear that was not my intention.

What can I say Vivi? I loves ya and I thinks you do an awesome job. And I will personally beat up anyone who says otherwise! No... really!

Vivi, you are doing a great job and you're right sometimes if it weren't others like you and me and some others with big mouths, some times things wouldn't change and all. I am glad you're one of the moderators and I've never seen any issues wrong with your job till this point.

I seriously don't see anything wrong with your posting; I don't think that you're abusing your Moderator privilages at all. I haven't seen anything that would seriously offend someone that was posted by you.

just a quick word to say thank you to all of those - male and female - who've expressed interest in and support of what i've said here, whether publicly, or those who've contacted me privately.

Girl, people will frustrate you, even at times infuriate you, or just make you smile and giggle.
As moderator you job is simple, to help keep the peace and not let things get out of hand when obviously needed, do not get upset if you find your self having to do so and the complainer retaliates, this is normal for them to do, as for me, I think your doing a wonderful job. keep up the good work.

So you're the reason my chimney is dirty and full of soot. Let's get her! Seriously though it has escaped me if you have had widespread condemnation but i still think it is a right to describe a body shape or anything else in a story whether that be a stomach, face or a tree. That is why there is a mature forum if the mods decide it was too explicit, though i dont think it was.

I still think you were overreacting slightly. Im sure most of us feel you have done a good job on the whole so i dont see why things seem to have gotten so drastic for you to suffer a massive crisis in confidence.

thanks again, folks.

and to you eamonn, as i'm relying to your post, mainly.

that was my point about it being difficult to see that someone else finds something offensive when one doesn't oneself (sorry if all these "ones" sound pompous, but i don't want it to seem like i'm talking about anyone in particular). and we aspies have an even more difficult time, with theory of mind and lack of empathy issues, to whatever degree. all i was pointing out was that the image was offensive to me, as a woman (and obviously to other members, male and female), as it was sexist. i tried not to make a song and dance about it, as i don't think ranting works, particularly (well, not positively, anyway).

and it doesn't need to be "explicit" to be offensive. recently, i saw (in a shop) t-shirts which were so small, they could only have fitted girls of about 5 or 6. the legend across the front said "Porn Star in Training". i don't need to point out the horror of this. and the people who would buy and then dress their kids in this sort of clothing would be the first to shriek about paedophiles. it's all part of a continuum.

portraying women with large breasts re-inforces a stereotype of a woman as a sexual objuect, and nothing else. yes, i agree - it's mild, and we see worse every day. wouldn't it be nice, though to be somewhere where no-one had to worry about being confronted with images like this, where we're not called "ret*ds", "weirdos", or bullied, or treated as specimens in a zoo?

that's why i think the guidelines are there.

and i'm so pleased that we've started this debate.

Whether or not this thread was inspired by recent conflicts, I think vetivert's questions are valid ones to discuss.

I believe there should be a time and place for everyone to speak their mind. For censorship, against censorship. For "-isms", and against them. A lack of communication is a key ingredient of marginalization in any form.

Yes, people are going to be offended. Yes, they have every right to be offended when someone belittles something they care deeply about. But neither side should be able to shut down the other, just for having an opinion. In order to keep peace on a board like this one, it's necessary to stop persistent personal attacks. This is covered under the site guidelines. But beyond that... We have a mature forum and a politics/philosophy/religion forum for a reason.

People, where is the disagreement here?

Well stated

This is starting to sound like a reference to a particular incident to me.