Nonverbal learning disorder

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Who here has a diagnosis of NLD or think they might have NLD? And how does that show itself, concretely? I'm trying to find out more about that, but there's hardly any info and it's all just written abstractly or vaguely or always only the totally extreme cases are described.

Also I know that NLD and Asperger's share many traits (and that some experts say that most who have AS also have NLD), but as far as I can see that only applies to difficulty with reading nonverbal cues and social situations, doesn't it? Or are NLDers also prone for example to excessive routines, rituals, narrow interests and repetitive behaviours?
Also, aren't they supposed to be auditory learners and be bad at visual-spatial tasks whereas people with ASDs actually excel at those?

I was first incorrectly assessed as NLD because I didn't provide enough background on myself regarding my childhood neurological difficulties, bizarre restrictive behaviours and interests, etc. So yes, I think one of the major differences between NLD and AS is the lack of restrictive routines & interests. I think NLD is more about trouble reading non-verbal communication and social cues; it doesn't involve the more severe social and sensory impairments that usually go with AS. As far as the skills/drawbacks to each, I can only speak for myself. I'm diagnosed with AS and ADHD. I was hyperlexic as a child. I'm terrible at math, but good with languages. I can't learn from watching other people or listening to instructions - I must have written instructions for everything. I remember very little of what I hear; I can't look at something/someone and listen at the same time. I understand why they initially thought I had NLD because often those with AS are good at math/science, but that's not always the case. Hope this didn't just confuse you more! I think there's a good website called "NLDonline" that might help you figure out where you fall in between these two diagnoses based on your own background. Good luck.

Basically, NLD is social problems without the obsessions or tunnel vision that AS has. You may not also have the tic like or OCD like symptoms. You just can't read other peoples non verbal communication.

I was DX'ed NLD as a child. I know a few really good articles, I'll try and bring some up...

here!
http://www.nldline.com/as_vs_nld.htm

GOOGLE NLD VS AS and other spelling structures for that idea, and you will get more,
Like NVLD VS AS
And: Non verbal learning disability and Aspergers

I'm an aspie but I know that I also have NLD I was horrible in school But they didn't know about NLD back then so I was just Known as the wierd kid with this thing called Asparagus Syndrome.

My daughter was originally diagnosed with PDD-NOS at age 3 and recently diagnosed as NLD instead of PDD-NOS. My son was also originally diagnosed with PDD-NOS and then that was changed to AS. The big difference between the two is that a person with NLD has a particular spread of subset scores on IQ tests such as the WISC-IV, showing social impairment (but not to the degree of AS) and also a peculiar dyscalcula (problems with math) and are primarly auditory learners (they take in information through words) and are weakest in the visual domain (cannot read maps, charts, graphs, etc.). They also have some dysphraxia.

Further comparing NLD to AS, the NLD person lacks the extreme special interests, can read and use non-verbal communication, but lack a typical insight into the minds of others, just like AS. The NLD person will have executive functioning problems similar to AS, but they do have a good central coherence, not focusing on details, unlike AS.

I don't see how one could have AS and NLD simultaneously.

That is not necessarily true with all NLD's...

I was Dx'ed with an NLD, I had the three of the D's, Dyscalculia, Dyslexia, Dysgraphia. And I do have problems with perception, (no depth perception for one) and as a child I struggled with maps, charts and graphs. However, in studying them so much, I over compensated, and now I find maps, charts and graphs VERY HELPFUL and use them all the time!

I do have an Auditory Processing Disorder though. I struggled as a child, in that I was neither strong in vision or auditory, but, if it was one or the other, I could "compensate". I could not do BOTH together, things like watching a documentary to answer questions in real time in class where identified as going to be problem areas for me in the future, when I was only 7 years old. (And they WHERE) Being given Auditory and Visual info at the same time put me into overload! That said, I needed to see visually and hear the information to fully understand it. It actually helped to "hear it" and THEN look at it, thus the misunderstanding I had for one, would be compensated with the other. But they could not be "combined" in to ONE presentation! 

I believe i am more visual though. I think in pictures, I have NEVER thought in words. I have movies play in my head all day of past experiences, thoughts of future events, things to do. I never "talk" to myself without an image. But, I can't fill in forms. I made a real mess of my sons DX release form at the doctor, and felt like an ASS, for not putting "last name first name address" in the right spaces! I did an "advanced academic stream" in HS, because it was considered the "smarter" program, but if I HAD to take a general course, thought to be the more "hands on less difficult program" I would BOMB because of all the forms they had to fill in!

Basically I was a very slow learner. But I was persistent, and once I "got it" I often would become the "expert" in the subject, a walking encyclopaedia! As time past, I was able to "process" information on more material faster using my "complex methodology" and became an encyclopaedia on more and more topics, eventually able to do this with almost all my course work, and interests. It was explained to my parents, that I had to work 10 times harder then the "average" kid to learn, and I did!

I overcame the dyscalculia, threw pure persistence, I am actually rather good at math, and plan to teach my son in HS through correspondence. (Using the Correspondence as a guide, since he needs everything turned "hands on".) That said, number reversals and patterning are still "difficult", I only learned my times tables in college! But most of the "theories" of math, I have become an "expert in".

The thing is, I fit an NLD dx rather well. I think that today, I would be DX'ed as AS though, because the NLD does not explain all my "quirks". I collect pine cones in parks, I mean, I spend HOURS collecting pinecones, and have about 10,000 in my attic. this is just one of the "strong unusual interests or collections" that I have. I stim, a lot. I stim through reading and typing, and online surfing, I stim when picking pinecones! I stim physically, with repetitive movements. I have meltdowns due to sensory overload, social situations and not being able to pursue my interests. I have a fascination with rocks too, and wanted to pick up some rock on my vacation to bring home for our garden. When we got hit with an April Snowstorm, I was irrational and upset all day because I thought we would not be able to get our rocks at all, and was horrible for two days. I did not want to be, but I could not pull myself out of it!

Anyway, I think that there are about as many types of NLD people as there are AS people. Just like with AS, some things may be "key markers of NLD" but a person may not present with every last one, or may have an anomaly.

Last edited by EarthCalling on 18 Apr 2007, 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

i think i have it. more than i have As., but im sure i might have them both?

I don't believe they are really co morbid (can exist together).

The thing is, if you look at NLD, you will find that most of the symptoms of it are also in Aspergers. Also, the co morbid conditons, like Dyscalcula / dysgraphia, dyslexia CAN be co morbid to BOTH.

So I would start by looking at NLD or AS, and then examine the Co morbid conditions, to see what you are...

You may be NLD with dysgraphia, you may be AS with dysgraphia, you may be a mix of any of them.

Do you find in the DSM that some of the indicators of AS DON'T discribe you?

I just spoke with my daughter's developmental psychologist yesterday whereby we went over all the subscores on the various tests and discussed the ways that NLD differ from AS. She also explained that the NLD diagnosis isn't recognized in the DSM-IV, but she expects it to be in the next edition. It will not be under the autistic spectrum, but under the broader category of LDs. It is a very new concept so I don't see how you could have been diagnosed with it as a child.

Professionals believe the NLD profile to be very specific and if you want to self-diagnose with it, be my guest. The information I presented is the current opinion of professionals who work only with developmental disorders. My childrens' psychologist was trained by a university center for autism and she knows of what she speaks.

AS is considered most severe and will supersede it.

i can't decide where i would fit in...

i am a good auditory AND visual person... so i am trying to tease apart how i could be this or that... the AS specialist with whom i spoke to for a while did say that NLD might be a possiblitiy but i should "do more testing"....

the only thing that makes me feel i'm AS is that i've always had these projects... and i've always had to have "alone time"... i used to get up at like 5-5:30am at home just to get up and be up before anyone else in the house... and eye contact issues (do NLD have that char too?)

w/e it is... i'm just glad to know i'm in the general neighborhood and can at least start analyzing all the perdicaments that crop up... and figuring other ways for addressing them in the future.

Why don't you get more testing then? There are certain profiles, which indicate strenghts and weaknesses, typical to NLD and AS. Both have verbal IQs typically much higher than performance IQs.

The special interests is a cornerstone in the diagnosis of any ASD. That is one of the big differences between the two.

yeah... but i'm in the last mile of my graduate degree race... so i don't have time or insurance, for that matter.

that's the main thing... and after that... my goal is just to be a lab rat... so i won't be doing anything more than im doing now, so why bother? lol

i'm just weird... math was always hard for me (ask my mom about all my tantrums, like specifically for math class) but i've always done well, did ok in college calc and i rocked in physics (though the prof did not like my math stlye cause i used tricks and shortcuts)... but i'm extremely visual... when i went for IQ testing, they said i had out performed anyone they had had for these visual excercies similar to assembling 3D tanagrams...

generally my note taking style through out school (up til grad)... was to doodle pics with random words and sentences when i felt like it. (unless there was a lecture i loved, then i would write down EVERYTHING).. but i could just go back and look at my doodles and remember the lecture often word for word....

i think in pics but also associate pics with auditory clips and that is primarily how i remember all my foreign languages... i find the right word pic and that generates all these movies/auditory (these two always stay coupled, i don't have auditory clips w/o a movie) clips that is like my collection of things containing the "intial word"

i use both but both are used in very narrow specific ways....

lol

hm, heres one for yah i think asperger syndrome is really a nvld, and not apart of autism.
it fits better

That's true in a way. The Peformance IQ will be higher in autism than the verbal IQ, pretty much opposite from AS and NVLD. I think there are many flavors of AS they haven't been sorted out:

AS with ADHD
AS with CAPD
AS with dysgraphia (is that NVLD?)

My personal flavor is AS/ADHD/CAPD/dysgraphia, but I'm good in math and can keep myself more organized than the typical NVLD person.

Can the repetitive behavior of autism really be compared to a special interest? Is picking lint for hours and hours really comparable with having a fascination with the Ottomon Empire (whatever interest)?

The worst subset for NVLD people on the IQ test is digit span: that is keeping a series of numbers in your head short term and then repeating them and also repeating them backwards. Some people with autism can do this very well.

Then again, autism, AS, NVLD, ADHD run in families. *scratches head*

well for me anyways, i dont have an average IQ my global functioning is 50.