Beyond Pride Vs. (X,Y,Z) Advocacy
22 Aug 2011, 8:06 pm
Gallowglass wrote:
ci wrote:
You claim you run a multi-million dollar business. If it were the perfect and ideal world your theory which I've also uttered to others behind the scenes quite similarly to your own is not 100% reasonable without compromise. Others with autism do think they need compassionate understanding and help and that does not make them bad people. I've developed my version of a compromise with an inclusion model in PR to get people into the door none-the-less. There is no reason for a great deal of the dependency that exists in today world but more reason to strive for results far beyond the previous achievements of special interest groups who are the ones whom should be including. It's not as cut and dry as you or I would like it but none the less something a bit more inciting to those kinds of goals ought to step forward and try just as I have. If individuals that are diagnosed similarly but more abled and other times not even diagnosed go up against efforts for inclusion that seek just those same goals with whatever resources can be derived but with better models then the risk is isolation, exclusion and the perpetuation of unequal inclusion of those whom are excluded. In 5 years I have built up the awareness of my efforts which has reached presidents of some popular organizations in other areas, media and well outside of the area where I've seen others in forum groups share the news awareness about the company.
You cannot simply have your entire way on the issue but you have then three choices. Seek to destroy compassionate terms of inclusion when individuals need that understand, work with compassionate models to better innovate or simply ignore it as if it will fail. One choice seeks destruction without compromise, the other compromises for better results and the third much worse which is indifference which helps no one.
People who do need compassionate terms to become included least at first ought to have dignity as well.
You cannot simply have your entire way on the issue but you have then three choices. Seek to destroy compassionate terms of inclusion when individuals need that understand, work with compassionate models to better innovate or simply ignore it as if it will fail. One choice seeks destruction without compromise, the other compromises for better results and the third much worse which is indifference which helps no one.
People who do need compassionate terms to become included least at first ought to have dignity as well.
Sorry mate
" unequal inclusion of those whom are excluded"?
I have no idea what you are on about; have you been licking windows again?
Those who are excluded are the profoundly disabled autistic people that would never not likely ever find a job on their own. My understanding is that services like the candlemaking business and the janitorial service I alluded to, allow those that would normally be excluded a better opportunity to gain equal inclusion in the working world. Without this opportunity many become isolated in life, excluded from the opportunity to be a real part of what goes on in the world.
This is the Autism experience for Ci and others, it is different than the Autism experience for others among us.
He came to the website with a bit of a chip on his shoulder because some could not understand that need as a compelling one in the Autistic Community on another website. His attempt here is to express how much it means to him as an individual to help other people understand that need. This website allows those opinions, so he continues to do what he as an individual sees as meaningful.
It took me a while to understand it, but I felt it was something worthwhile to understand.
22 Aug 2011, 8:16 pm
aghogday wrote:
Gallowglass wrote:
ci wrote:
I think you have forgotten that the aspie political movement is an extremely small amount of people compared to the greater majority of individuals with autism who typically are kind or simply not involved in the messes of online advocates that at times spill offline. Again no individuals with autism or other individuals with disabilities I've seen around me is nearly as fanatical or anti-Establish-mental and out right reverse discriminating intending then some of the advocates online which the public at times confuses myself and others for as if we are like them. I'd like to think that people ought to get along in good positive inclusive efforts but the madness of some of these politics which entirely alter world-views such as the them vs. us nonesense does not like it one bit. After-all if N.T's are nice and helpful as what I've experienced and project in advocacy then it can be threatening to some beliefs.
Again with regards to the people not diagnosed and who have inclusive achievements the efforts your attacking for my disagreeing with you on some others issues you hold dear are not about you, for you and your hatred toward it for it's audacity and success simply proves autism advocacy should be divided for certain need based groups.
Again with regards to the people not diagnosed and who have inclusive achievements the efforts your attacking for my disagreeing with you on some others issues you hold dear are not about you, for you and your hatred toward it for it's audacity and success simply proves autism advocacy should be divided for certain need based groups.
Ci
My goal is a world where Aspies live in dignity in employment and have equal opportunities for happy and productive lives.
This includes not being dependant upon charity or state handouts.
Your activities encourage a perpetuation of this.
The website here is for neurotypicals, undiagnosed autistics, diagnosed autistics, and those with other unrelated disorders; all their opinions are welcome. Probably the least represented group are the majority of Autistic people that number 80% of those with Classic Autism that are not measured as having normal and above IQ levels; this of course is not to suggest that they don't have intelligence that is not measured by this tool.
I too believe that you have a noble goal here for people with Aspergers. However for those that are more profoundly disabled by the condition, the opportunities that service organizations provide accommodate the needs of some others, enabling them to become part of the working world.
While candle making and janitorial work, may not meet the employment goals of some, there are disabled people that take great pride in the fact that they are able to go out in the working world and be part of it.
A number of disabled autistic people were employed in a service that only employed disabled individuals, that provided janitorial services for a military installation where I worked, and they were as proud and happy to be employed in their jobs as the Captain of the base.
You can bet that many of these disabled people that are employed in making candles are proud and happy to have an opportunity to be part of the working world. For some that are more profoundly disabled, these type of opportunities would not exist, if people did not create them specifically for disabled people.
A college degree is no guarantee of a job at McDonalds in the US. Finding work is hard for those that are blessed with the highest abilities found within the population.
The goal you have and the goal that the candle making organization have meet the needs of those that can help themselves and those that do require help from others to make it in life. Both goals are noble ones.
I think Ci's argument here is to bring to light that not all Autistic people can support themselves within the community without specific efforts in the Community that provide the opportunities.
He feels like some advocacy organizations don't understand that these people are not disabled by society but by the disabling symptoms that some experience with Autism. Society does not stand in the way of these individual's progress in life, they enable it through programs that allow them to become part of the working world.
If I didn't see the look of pride on those individuals that worked in the janitorial service on the military installation, one might be able to convince me that it somehow demeaning to offer these type of menial jobs to the disabled.
Janitorial work and sanitation in general has saved more lives than any other profession in the history of the world. It might not be the best of jobs for all, but it is meaningful work in the results it achieves for better health for all people.
The difference here is while some people with Autism feel like society holds them back, which it can where there is discrimination based on disability, there are others more profoundly disabled who are enabled by society, that would not have an opportunity to work, if it was not for specific efforts from society to provide that opportunity.
It doesn't match the ideology of neurodiversity because neurodiversity suggests that society disables the neurodiverse, not the condition they were born with.
While this may be true for some individuals that are considered neurodiverse, it does not apply in regard to those that are inherently disabled by their disability, including some with Autism who are more profoundly disabled by the symptoms.
It seems fairly simple, different needs for different individuals that should be accepted by all. A move toward more rights in the workplace for those that have the ability to seek their own employment and the enabling of those to work that are not in a position to seek their own employment seems like a reasonable solution in the discussion here.
Different advocacy solutions to meet the needs of different people.
Organizations like ASAN and Autism Speaks don't provide these kind of opportunities, but they advocate for them and provide information for people on where to find them. It is the government and the private sector whom we must rely on to provide greater rights in the workplace for those that seek them, and the enabling of others by providing specific job opportunities for those more profoundly disabled individuals.
You are right mate and I agree with what you say about the benefits for the low functioning to have access to sheltered employment.
I prefer to see this in terms of rights though rather than charity.To establish rights we need a degree of political power and organisation in order to effect legislative change.
It is just that Ci's advocavy style gets right up my nose and if he could put his views forward in a logical and grammatical manner and did not resort to cheap ad hominem attacks or believe that selling candles makes him the only spokesman on autistic issues he might actually get the support and attention that he is seeking.
In short, Ci is a liability to autistic people and his own worst enemy.
22 Aug 2011, 8:30 pm
Some that claim to be aspie are worse then what they claim N.T's are. Hatred in-fixed at anything that does not promote a one sided agenda about their personal perspectives. To me pride and the alike can be selfish, self-centered, intolerant, hateful and destructive especially when they combine issues of abortion toward society. Pride is blinding seeing only the agenda it seeks and that agenda seems many times to see any kind of inferiority notion of autism as a judgement against their individuality and chosen identity in politics. This is where the buck stops and public education begins with regards to intolerance vs how to tolerate those claiming intolerance. It's from this point that within the community where applicable pride related politicians of the image of autism need to find ways to become more tolerant less extinct their ideals or even lesson their impact of even potentially more respectful variations of it's philosophy.
I'm telling them right now no or few diversity respecting persons would compromise human compassion over human pride and related as a philosophy to manifest furthered progressions of diversities inclusion. If the autism social hierarchy of advocates whom are high functioning and more enabled seek to destroy enabling premises of those whom need more help then they ought to be considered two separate and distinct groups. The very higher functioning ought to be treated as if they should be ethically obliged to varied respect-abilities as a different variation of individuals all together much like how they wish me to perceive N.T's at times.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
Last edited by ci on 22 Aug 2011, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
22 Aug 2011, 8:35 pm
ci wrote:
Some that claim to be aspie are worse then what they claim N.T's are. Hatred in-fixed at anything that does not promote a one sided agenda about their personal versions of pride. To me pride can be selfish, self-centered, intolerant, hateful and destructive especially when they combine issues of abortion. Pride is blinding seeing only the agenda it seeks for the absolution or it's agenda and that agenda seems many times to see any kind of inferiority notion of autism as a judgement against their individuality and chosen identity in politics. This is where the buck stops and public education begins with regards to intolerance vs how to tolerate those claiming intolerance. It's from this point that within the community where applicable pride related politicians of the image of autism need to find ways to become more tolerant less extinct their ideals or even lesson their impact of even potentially more respectful variations of it's philosophy.
I'm telling them right now no or few diversity respecting persons would compromise human compassion over human pride and related as a philosophy to manifest furthered progressions of diversities inclusion. If the autism social hierarchy of advocates whom are high functioning and more enabled seek to destroy enabling premises of those whom need more help then they ought to be considered two separate and distinct groups. The very higher functioning ought to be treated as if they should be ethically obliged to varied respect-abilities as a different variation of individuals all together much like how they wish me to perceive N.T's at times.
I'm telling them right now no or few diversity respecting persons would compromise human compassion over human pride and related as a philosophy to manifest furthered progressions of diversities inclusion. If the autism social hierarchy of advocates whom are high functioning and more enabled seek to destroy enabling premises of those whom need more help then they ought to be considered two separate and distinct groups. The very higher functioning ought to be treated as if they should be ethically obliged to varied respect-abilities as a different variation of individuals all together much like how they wish me to perceive N.T's at times.
Ci
This post is meaningless drivel.
Please edit so that posters can respond in a cogent manner.
22 Aug 2011, 8:38 pm
Oh shut up you piece of work as for what you express as it is, is something real advocates should keep clear of as your approaches and perspectives are beyond borderline hate. I still think your doing the best job ever at helping rather then hurting. Unless your that far gone in your perspectives then you will think otherwise.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
22 Aug 2011, 8:48 pm
Gallowglass wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Gallowglass wrote:
ci wrote:
I think you have forgotten that the aspie political movement is an extremely small amount of people compared to the greater majority of individuals with autism who typically are kind or simply not involved in the messes of online advocates that at times spill offline. Again no individuals with autism or other individuals with disabilities I've seen around me is nearly as fanatical or anti-Establish-mental and out right reverse discriminating intending then some of the advocates online which the public at times confuses myself and others for as if we are like them. I'd like to think that people ought to get along in good positive inclusive efforts but the madness of some of these politics which entirely alter world-views such as the them vs. us nonesense does not like it one bit. After-all if N.T's are nice and helpful as what I've experienced and project in advocacy then it can be threatening to some beliefs.
Again with regards to the people not diagnosed and who have inclusive achievements the efforts your attacking for my disagreeing with you on some others issues you hold dear are not about you, for you and your hatred toward it for it's audacity and success simply proves autism advocacy should be divided for certain need based groups.
Again with regards to the people not diagnosed and who have inclusive achievements the efforts your attacking for my disagreeing with you on some others issues you hold dear are not about you, for you and your hatred toward it for it's audacity and success simply proves autism advocacy should be divided for certain need based groups.
Ci
My goal is a world where Aspies live in dignity in employment and have equal opportunities for happy and productive lives.
This includes not being dependant upon charity or state handouts.
Your activities encourage a perpetuation of this.
The website here is for neurotypicals, undiagnosed autistics, diagnosed autistics, and those with other unrelated disorders; all their opinions are welcome. Probably the least represented group are the majority of Autistic people that number 80% of those with Classic Autism that are not measured as having normal and above IQ levels; this of course is not to suggest that they don't have intelligence that is not measured by this tool.
I too believe that you have a noble goal here for people with Aspergers. However for those that are more profoundly disabled by the condition, the opportunities that service organizations provide accommodate the needs of some others, enabling them to become part of the working world.
While candle making and janitorial work, may not meet the employment goals of some, there are disabled people that take great pride in the fact that they are able to go out in the working world and be part of it.
A number of disabled autistic people were employed in a service that only employed disabled individuals, that provided janitorial services for a military installation where I worked, and they were as proud and happy to be employed in their jobs as the Captain of the base.
You can bet that many of these disabled people that are employed in making candles are proud and happy to have an opportunity to be part of the working world. For some that are more profoundly disabled, these type of opportunities would not exist, if people did not create them specifically for disabled people.
A college degree is no guarantee of a job at McDonalds in the US. Finding work is hard for those that are blessed with the highest abilities found within the population.
The goal you have and the goal that the candle making organization have meet the needs of those that can help themselves and those that do require help from others to make it in life. Both goals are noble ones.
I think Ci's argument here is to bring to light that not all Autistic people can support themselves within the community without specific efforts in the Community that provide the opportunities.
He feels like some advocacy organizations don't understand that these people are not disabled by society but by the disabling symptoms that some experience with Autism. Society does not stand in the way of these individual's progress in life, they enable it through programs that allow them to become part of the working world.
If I didn't see the look of pride on those individuals that worked in the janitorial service on the military installation, one might be able to convince me that it somehow demeaning to offer these type of menial jobs to the disabled.
Janitorial work and sanitation in general has saved more lives than any other profession in the history of the world. It might not be the best of jobs for all, but it is meaningful work in the results it achieves for better health for all people.
The difference here is while some people with Autism feel like society holds them back, which it can where there is discrimination based on disability, there are others more profoundly disabled who are enabled by society, that would not have an opportunity to work, if it was not for specific efforts from society to provide that opportunity.
It doesn't match the ideology of neurodiversity because neurodiversity suggests that society disables the neurodiverse, not the condition they were born with.
While this may be true for some individuals that are considered neurodiverse, it does not apply in regard to those that are inherently disabled by their disability, including some with Autism who are more profoundly disabled by the symptoms.
It seems fairly simple, different needs for different individuals that should be accepted by all. A move toward more rights in the workplace for those that have the ability to seek their own employment and the enabling of those to work that are not in a position to seek their own employment seems like a reasonable solution in the discussion here.
Different advocacy solutions to meet the needs of different people.
Organizations like ASAN and Autism Speaks don't provide these kind of opportunities, but they advocate for them and provide information for people on where to find them. It is the government and the private sector whom we must rely on to provide greater rights in the workplace for those that seek them, and the enabling of others by providing specific job opportunities for those more profoundly disabled individuals.
You are right mate and I agree with what you say about the benefits for the low functioning to have access to sheltered employment.
I prefer to see this in terms of rights though rather than charity.To establish rights we need a degree of political power and organisation in order to effect legislative change.
It is just that Ci's advocavy style gets right up my nose and if he could put his views forward in a logical and grammatical manner and did not resort to cheap ad hominem attacks or believe that selling candles makes him the only spokesman on autistic issues he might actually get the support and attention that he is seeking.
In short, Ci is a liability to autistic people and his own worst enemy.
You thought at first I was your X-wife now you think I am the only autism advocate that should advocate. On the other hand I speak about many different kinds of advocates and work with other self-advocates. Your attempt to make me out to be someone I am not while attacking good efforts with spewing hatred as if I am a poor disabled person seeking pity was your social and political downfall. You are a risk because you simply cannot accept people can be enabled by others caring and solutions by means of compassion rather then pity is derived by these means.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
22 Aug 2011, 9:10 pm
Unfortunitly unlike you who claims to own a multi-million dollar business things like this are vastly more important to me then your idle put downs for entertainment and political hostilities toward possibilities I see hope in. If only you knew the harm your words potentially have and meanwhile you as cowards tend to be will have little to no effect in their lives as they hide have a great deal more everyday hope while they attack the little hope of others. That's what I call an unethical inhumanity.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
22 Aug 2011, 9:12 pm
ci wrote:
Unfortunitly unlike you who claims to own a multi-million dollar business things like this are vastly more important to me then your idle put downs for entertainment and political hostilities toward possibilities I see hope in. If only you knew the harm your words potentially have and meanwhile you as cowards tend to be will have little to no effect in their lives as they hide have a great deal more everyday hope while they attack the little hope of others. That's what I call the purist form of of inhumanities.
Please tell us what harm my words could have.
Suffering from dilussions of granduer again?
22 Aug 2011, 9:16 pm
It's your idle attitude that seeks to hamper the pursuit of social justice and frankly I am disgusted at the possibility somehow as a purported fellow community member within the overall autism community I'd be somehow considered like you to any degree whatsoever! I am definitely guilty of an insecurity. An insecurity your words could render me personally perceived as any less compassionate minded as a person who happens to be diagnosed with autism.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
22 Aug 2011, 9:27 pm
ci wrote:
It's your idle attitude that seeks to hamper the pursuit of social justice and frankly I am disgusted at the possibility somehow as a purported fellow community member within the overall autism community I'd be somehow considered like you to any degree whatsoever! I am definitely guilty of an insecurity. An insecurity your words could render me personally perceived as any less compassionate minded as a person who happens to be diagnosed with autism.
Have you been drinking or sniffing glue again?
22 Aug 2011, 9:33 pm
Lots of candle fragrances lately. At first a bit of a headache but after that I just started smelling like deserts and someone wanted to lick me or rather said I was good enough to lick. Glue on the other hand I don't have any of that. Is that what burned the part of your brain that made you loose compassion for those not as fortunate as you that you feel treated by that you got to try and destroy hope so idly? I'm thinking was it perminant glue stuck up your nose because you were being a smart bugger like they say over there or was it on purpose as you keep bringing it up and I've never used much glue in my life and your thinking I do what you seem to fancy so much it's a common concern brought up by you so as not to do as you have learned better. Someone you know do that kind of thing?
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
22 Aug 2011, 9:41 pm
ci wrote:
Lots of candle fragrances lately. At first a bit of a headache but after that I just started smelling like deserts and someone wanted to lick me or rather said I was good enough to lick. Glue on the other hand I don't have any of that. Is that what burned the part of your brain that made you loose compassion for those not as fortunate as you that you feel treated by that you got to try and destroy hope so idly? I'm thinking was it perminant glue stuck up your nose because you were being a smart bugger like they say over there or was it on purpose as you keep bringing it up and I've never used much glue in my life and your thinking I do what you seem to fancy so much it's a common concern brought up by you so as not to do as you have learned better. Someone you know do that kind of thing?
Nathan
Starting to loose the plot again?
22 Aug 2011, 9:49 pm
Quite frankly simply a smart butt reply to instill I can be constructively similar in articulation but have a different set of goals.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
22 Aug 2011, 9:54 pm
That was English unless you were born in England and don't accept that the revolutionary war was originally fought and won but another form of English.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
