Beyond Pride Vs. (X,Y,Z) Advocacy

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@ci i have a hard time believing that the pride movement is sufocating human services enough that thats the real reason for the endless anti pride rants.all your posts are about this,there has got to be more important issues to talk about.even autism speaks doesnt spend that much time bashing the pride\autism supremacy political wing

No they wouldn't spend no time if at all anytime on the pride issues. I never said anything about human services. I'm speaking about it's projected agenda at times and showing the audacity to stand up to it. Some would have myself and others with autism fearful to speak against them. I am simply showing them I can think for myself in my own choices and won't be pushed around for doing so. I think that it is also important individuals that have been pushed by the pride movement and including organizations that not everyone with autism that is even aware of the issues agrees with them. This I think is very important because some organizations at times don't know how to challenge issues for our best interest like for instance inclusion or treatment in PR if they risk being attacked. What I suggest is there are for sure some that want treatment advancement and of course facilitated employment and those that do not want these things or want to be part of efforts that do it differently can do so while other efforts continue doing as they do. It comes down to personal choice and personal choices are human rights that go both and if not many different ways on issues.

let me rephrase,you say that the pride movement wants to stop services or things that can help because they percieve that as cure and insult.have you not said that

You certainly advertise your candles, dead sea bath salts, etc. on your site and advise people on some of the places where they can be purchased.

Employment of people is a good thing, and to the extent to which that is what you are doing, you are to be commended.

I haven't been able to determine whether you are advocating aromatherapy for autism, though the name of your site, 'autismcandles', suggests that you are. As a skeptic and a scientific person, I hope that you are not claiming therapeutic effects for your products or suggesting that they are of particular benefit to people with autism who might use them. Again, the name of your site invites this interpretation, and I've seen nothing on your site to suggest otherwise. If you make such claims, I will regard you as disreputable and certainly not worthy of being associated with autism. I urge you to clarify your position with respect to any alleged therapeutic benefits on your site.



So you say. Yet I've seen posts to the contrary.



Don't be ridiculous. I am concerned that some people seek to profit from their association with a disorder. If you are sincere and effective in your operation, that is good. Your posts make me uneasy in some regards, but that doesn't mean that you aren't sincere and effective. Until I see clarification on your site regarding any alleged benefits, the jury is out.

As I've noted, you are fighting your own straw men with you speak of 'attempting to force their choices', my 'hatred', etc.



What gay rights politics? Where did I say how you should (or 'must') view autism? I have told you what I think, that is all, and it had nothing to do with 'gay rights politics'.

I have clearly said in these threads and in others that for some, autism is a signficant disability with few redeeming benefits, for others autism (especially Asperger's) can offer significant benefits with few drawbacks, but that for a great many of us autism falls in between, offering some benefits and some signficant detriments.

Of course, people will experience their autism differently. The spectrum is what it is.

As to anonymity, I will continue to avail myself of the anonymity offered by the site, though I will share my email with people that I come to trust over time. I do this primarily so that I am free to comment on this site in ways that others may find useful, but that may not be posts that I want to be discovered when searching for a job - not because I am ashamed of them but because there are many who would not understand.



That is between you and California. I simply want to ensure that some organization associating itself with autism and using 'autism' in the name of its website is worthy of that association.

Last edited by AlanTuring on 15 Aug 2011, 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nope. I figured their may be a risk if autism is not perceived serious enough that the public would not support services. Individuals like ARI who are very independent are not like others with autism. Some of the parents I talk to online who have experienced the bashing by pride now think everyone views autism to be like how Ari is. My means of thinking about cure has me thinking about how services can also be a kind of a inclusive treatment and looking at a cure for autism as being multifaceted and not so very rigid. Whereas autism as originally described seemed to be about symptoms which hinder and not necessarily the entire diversity which may comprise someone neurologically. To go from isolated patterns of behavior to more inclusion behavior to me is a remarkable treatment and in some respect compared to entire isolation a kind of singular cure for a symptom of rigid isolated patterns if one become more self-inclusive entirely.

I think that emotionally in society if we can separate the symptoms of autism where they manifest more serious hardships and society sees smaller improvements as individual potentials of treatment or if not potential cure it can be more powerful. The only fall back is with some who seem otherwise for the most part individually very high functioning who would object based on the idea their autism is not needing a cure. Fine then let's separate the groups and as I know Asperger's is being removed from the DSM-IV and still then personal beliefs of themselves uniquely can be respected but for the rest who need help cure I think can include "inclusive integration" treatments.

I do not sell candles online I am simply sharing the story.

As a scientific person I'm sure you know about assumption. Just because I talk on this website about treatment rights which are part of mandates consumer rights law which you disagree with does not make an employment project about aromatherapy which is not even mentioned on the website. It's described as an employment candle making program and has nothing about cure, research or treatment of autism. Your making it up to cause problems and I think you need to back off because people are earning wages and others support it. Your hatred against it will fail and it's not up to you but the first person that came up with the brand name and registered the domains which happens to be a person with autism who is myself that assures it is ran in a fashion others benefit from and that there is no heir-achy that takes away earnings selfishly for another purpose. It's what many advocates I've overheard have wanted. Our own employment by and for ourselves for those like us.

The candles have nothing to do with cure politics. If we cannot disagree on things and seek to destroy employment progress out of spite it is much worse then the so called N.T oppression other express. I can understand some of it and agree with some of it but I will not be threatened in anyway to think like you or else an equal opportunity project will be attacked. I say bring it on it will only help.

With regards to the other subjects allow me an hr as I must handle some emails.

Last edited by ci on 15 Aug 2011, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ci - I have to say that trying to discuss things with you is very frustrating and very disappointing.

You insist on discussing things that only you see and disregarding or willfully misinterpreting the words that are in front of you.

You seem to think that someone having pride is a conspiracy against you, that sexuality just loves to sneak into places it doesn't belong, and that you are right, nay positively brilliant, on every topic under the sun.

It ain't so.

I'm sure I won't be able to resist responding to some of your posts in the future, but I wish I had more self-control.

This has been a very odd set of discussions.

Now I am too brilliant for you not just kind of dumb. Listen give me a little time to take care of some other things and I will simply outline the essential rationale so you can understand where I'm coming from. It's based on state and federal laws.

I'll reserve judgement on this statement until later.



The assumption that I made is one that many people would plausibly make.

The name of your site is autismcandles.

If I encountered a site named cancercandles, diabetescandles, or depressioncandles, the first thing that would spring into my mind (and I suspect many others) would be that the site is selling candles that can help treat a disease or ease the symptoms of a disease.

There are a great many people out there, especially desperate people, who would jump at the chance to buy candles that might do something like that. I think that if you don't want people to jump to that conclusion about autismcandles, you need to make it very clear and prominently explicit on your site. Failure to do so could be construed as enabling people in their (mistaken) delusions.

Again, to the extent that your business is up front, clear about its claims, and enables people to earn a living (especially those who might have difficulty earning a living otherwise), you are to be commended.



I am making nothing up, and I have no wish to cause problems for a valid enterprise.

I am turned off by the degree to which you promote this group and try to use it as a shield to ward off criticism.

I have no hatred towards it or towards you.

As I've said, I find the name 'autismcandles' misleading.



Please - take as much time as you like. I, too, would enjoy doing something else.

Quite misrepresenting what I said.

I said that your posts are often difficult or unpleasant to read.

I did not call you dumb and I did not call you brilliant.

Please don't bother outlining anything, at least not on my account. That isn't something that interests me.

That's my point - your posting style has not been effective in making me interested in what you have to say, or in reading your posts on many subjects.

Some of what you have to say should be interesting, and I wish you would find a way of communicating it effectively.

Since you haven't laid that groundwork yet, by building up trust through a series of worthwhile and readable posts, you shouldn't expect me or many others to willingly read another long post, especially one involving state and federal law.

You find it misleading because of your assumptions of what other groups do under the name of autism and their are plenty of other groups that mention autism either in description or name that are about employment, inclusion or social services.. It's always been advertised as an employment program and project with no affiliation nor claim to otherwise. In fact on the Autism Candles label I developed it is top line "Autism" second line "Candles" third line in smaller text "Employment Program". On the website the very name is about Compassionate Integration which implies inclusion and not medical research. For some when a therapist recommends it inclusion can be a form of treatment in the same way going on a walk can be or becoming part of a group when one desires to. Typically these are generically describe as skills development.

Modality of mandated rights explanation with in bold which are reflective of my arguments of personal choices.

Wikapedia of Lanterman Act Rights and also based on federal laws..

Rights of the Disabled under the Act

The Lanterman Act protects the rights of people with developmental disabilities by mandating rights including:

Services that protect liberty, provided in the least restrictive (most integrated) way.

Dignity, privacy and humane care.

Treatment, services and supports in natural community settings, to the greatest extent possible.

Participation in an appropriate program of publicly supported education regardless of the degree of disability.

Prompt medical care and treatment.

Freedom of religion and conscience, and freedom to practice religion.

Social interaction and participation in community activities.

Physical exercise and recreation.

Freedom from harm, including unnecessary physical restraints, isolation, excessive medication, abuse or neglect.

Freedom from hazardous procedures.

Choices in one's own life, including where and with whom one chooses to live, relationships with people in the community, how to spend time (including education, employment and leisure), the pursuit of one's chosen personal future, and the planning and implementation of a plan that fits the needs and desires of the individual.

The opportunity to make decisions and to have information understand to help make informed choices.

ci wrote:
I do not sell candles online I am simply sharing the story.


I'll reserve judgement on this statement until later.

It simply would not be profitable to sell candles to individuals as it takes time to pack them up, do the shipping details and so on. Even if it were to be developed I'd need to be talked into it. I see it as competing with others who already do and those coming on board now. There is no need for it as equal opportunity should have it's place in the larger economy.

When generically spoken or implied and even when what may be assumed without clarification as it has been used countless times to remove treatment rights advancements in PR by arguing it is similar to the intolerance experienced by being gay is no where near similar enough to be akin to have autism. Viewing autism as a disability is not the same as not viewing gay people respectfully. This needs to be made clear as to many times others have been made out to be intolerant by using gay politics to force views about autism as a whole. In how some or many more with autism experience life in relation to others without autism by being bullied or treated poorly I think this is where the comparison or suggested association can be made better. It's how others treat people with autism as in human behavioral relations and not advancements in medical and other therapeutic treatments which is where a conflict in the right to treatment and even dignity can be made.

Do you understand?

'compassionate integration' suggests woo, superstition, and a lack of critical thinking to me. Those things are highly resonant with belief in aromatherapy and other forms of 'alternative medicine'.

A search on Google for 'compassionate integration' yields a great many links to woo articles, including ones on 'compassionate integration counselling', complementary therapies, holistic nutrition, integrative nutrition, integrative medicine, qi - and those are only from the first 10 links.

You chose a name for your company that is very similar to that used in many alternative therapy and 'alternative medicine' approaches.

The name of your website is resonant with aromatherapy.

Yet you blame me for jumping to unwarranted assumptions.

I think you have a lot of misconception avoidance to do on your site.

No. I gave up very quickly.

As I explained to you, your writing is often painful to parse, and you haven't made it worth my while to bother any more. For some reason, when you get in certain modes your writing becomes a thick wall of weeds. This is one of those passages.

Please don't waste any more time writing this stuff until you learn to write it better.

I'd have to ask you to use a dictionary. It is of a related to caring about other people which in premise even doctors do. Your focusing in on something which is easily refutable. It wouldn't stand legally and seeking to destroy employment progress for individuals that choose seems to be a little underhanded by yourself. However if a fundraiser that wanted to use the candles for research fundraising sought to do so I would allow it and the same for autism acceptance groups. Autism acceptance to me can be misunderstood but we will see how that conversation ends. Thus far parents have used them for educational funding for school ages children who have autism which is not really therapy.

Additionally it is part of the goal of the organization to eventually hire a well seasoned and open-minded behaviorist for individuals that need it. Just another form of inclusion needs and practices. Under the law a person can decline any form of treatment, service or support. It is voluntary. I receive ABA myself.

Last edited by ci on 15 Aug 2011, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.