Beyond Pride Vs. (X,Y,Z) Advocacy
22 Aug 2011, 11:54 pm
Gallowglass wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Gallowglass wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Gallowglass wrote:
ci wrote:
I think you have forgotten that the aspie political movement is an extremely small amount of people compared to the greater majority of individuals with autism who typically are kind or simply not involved in the messes of online advocates that at times spill offline. Again no individuals with autism or other individuals with disabilities I've seen around me is nearly as fanatical or anti-Establish-mental and out right reverse discriminating intending then some of the advocates online which the public at times confuses myself and others for as if we are like them. I'd like to think that people ought to get along in good positive inclusive efforts but the madness of some of these politics which entirely alter world-views such as the them vs. us nonesense does not like it one bit. After-all if N.T's are nice and helpful as what I've experienced and project in advocacy then it can be threatening to some beliefs.
Again with regard to the people not diagnosed and who have inclusive achievements the efforts your attacking for my disagreeing with you on some others issues you hold dear are not about you, for you and your hatred toward it for it's audacity and success simply proves autism advocacy should be divided for certain need based groups.
Again with regard to the people not diagnosed and who have inclusive achievements the efforts your attacking for my disagreeing with you on some others issues you hold dear are not about you, for you and your hatred toward it for it's audacity and success simply proves autism advocacy should be divided for certain need based groups.
Ci
My goal is a world where Aspies live in dignity in employment and have equal opportunities for happy and productive lives.
This includes not being dependant upon charity or state handouts.
Your activities encourage a perpetuation of this.
The website here is for neurotypicals, undiagnosed autistics, diagnosed autistics, and those with other unrelated disorders; all their opinions are welcome. Probably the least represented group are the majority of Autistic people that number 80% of those with Classic Autism that are not measured as having normal and above IQ levels; this of course is not to suggest that they don't have intelligence that is not measured by this tool.
I too believe that you have a noble goal here for people with Aspergers. However for those that are more profoundly disabled by the condition, the opportunities that service organizations provide accommodate the needs of some others, enabling them to become part of the working world.
While candle making and janitorial work, may not meet the employment goals of some, there are disabled people that take great pride in the fact that they are able to go out in the working world and be part of it.
A number of disabled autistic people were employed in a service that only employed disabled individuals, that provided janitorial services for a military installation where I worked, and they were as proud and happy to be employed in their jobs as the Captain of the base.
You can bet that many of these disabled people that are employed in making candles are proud and happy to have an opportunity to be part of the working world. For some that are more profoundly disabled, these type of opportunities would not exist, if people did not create them specifically for disabled people.
A college degree is no guarantee of a job at McDonalds in the US. Finding work is hard for those that are blessed with the highest abilities found within the population.
The goal you have and the goal that the candle making organization have meet the needs of those that can help themselves and those that do require help from others to make it in life. Both goals are noble ones.
I think Ci's argument here is to bring to light that not all Autistic people can support themselves within the community without specific efforts in the Community that provide the opportunities.
He feels like some advocacy organizations don't understand that these people are not disabled by society but by the disabling symptoms that some experience with Autism. Society does not stand in the way of these individual's progress in life, they enable it through programs that allow them to become part of the working world.
If I didn't see the look of pride on those individuals that worked in the janitorial service on the military installation, one might be able to convince me that it somehow demeaning to offer these type of menial jobs to the disabled.
Janitorial work and sanitation in general has saved more lives than any other profession in the history of the world. It might not be the best of jobs for all, but it is meaningful work in the results it achieves for better health for all people.
The difference here is while some people with Autism feel like society holds them back, which it can where there is discrimination based on disability, there are others more profoundly disabled who are enabled by society, that would not have an opportunity to work, if it was not for specific efforts from society to provide that opportunity.
It doesn't match the ideology of neurodiversity because neurodiversity suggests that society disables the neurodiverse, not the condition they were born with.
While this may be true for some individuals that are considered neurodiverse, it does not apply in regard to those that are inherently disabled by their disability, including some with Autism who are more profoundly disabled by the symptoms.
It seems fairly simple, different needs for different individuals that should be accepted by all. A move toward more rights in the workplace for those that have the ability to seek their own employment and the enabling of those to work that are not in a position to seek their own employment seems like a reasonable solution in the discussion here.
Different advocacy solutions to meet the needs of different people.
Organizations like ASAN and Autism Speaks don't provide these kind of opportunities, but they advocate for them and provide information for people on where to find them. It is the government and the private sector whom we must rely on to provide greater rights in the workplace for those that seek them, and the enabling of others by providing specific job opportunities for those more profoundly disabled individuals.
You are right mate and I agree with what you say about the benefits for the low functioning to have access to sheltered employment.
I prefer to see this in terms of rights though rather than charity.To establish rights we need a degree of political power and organisation in order to effect legislative change.
It is just that Ci's advocavy style gets right up my nose and if he could put his views forward in a logical and grammatical manner and did not resort to cheap ad hominem attacks or believe that selling candles makes him the only spokesman on autistic issues he might actually get the support and attention that he is seeking.
In short, Ci is a liability to autistic people and his own worst enemy.
I think rights are good. In the US Autistic people when assessed as meeting government requirements are protected from discrimination in the workplace through the American's with Disabilities Act. Those on the whole spectrum consistently qualify for these rights when assessed. In the US, just yesterday it was announced that disability benefits will run out of money in the US in 6 years. For those Autistic people that are pemanently disabled and all others, hopefully something can be done about that.
I don't suggest that you like Ci's advocacy style, but it would be fair to understand that he is a developmentally disabled Autistic person, still undergoing ABA treatment, meeting goals in his life that he is proud of. It takes that kind of tenacious spirit of perservation for some Autistic people to suceed in their effort at life.
He is one of the Autistic people not capable of meeting the standards you suggest with writing style, his mind works differently. I've never had much of a problem understanding him, although I did wonder why he was so driven in this area, as many of us are in other areas of life.
I was developmentally delayed in output with speech and writing most of my life, but blessed in the input area. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses sometimes more obvious in some areas than others.
Before Ci came here to this specific forum, rarely was there a discussion here that created much controversy or dissent. He has created more conversation and controversy here, in this specific forum, probably since the site was initatiated. The record is there for review. He has actually toned down the fervor quite a bit since he came here, but he is getting wound up a little now. The view of the disabled Autistic person is worthy of consideration also.
My grandfather likely had Aspergers was considered a genius in his time, my father has aspergers, perserverance in law enforcement for 43 years. I got the classic autism with a developmental delay but adapted with no idea of Autism until 47 years later, and my child was born severely disabled with conditions associated with autism, he didn't survive, I wondered where that came from, now I know it was my side of the family.
When I think of Ci, I think of my disability and how I coped with it, and think of my child that didn't have the opportunity to cope long.
One doesn't have to like Ci, or take the time to understand him, but to me it seems fair for us not to expect him to suddenly overcome a lifelong developmental disability.
As I wondered how my child's life might be my challenges I was proud to have met, seemed insignificant to his challenge to live another minute. The challenges we face in life are always relative; Ci has met a greater challenge than some.
I won't excuse Ci for any attack you see as given by him, regardless of a diagnosis everyone has a right to be here and express their opinions.
On the other hand licking windows and sniffing glue, because any autistic person has a developmental disability and doesn't meet grammatical standards, is one thing that I don't think is fair for any of us to do to another autistic person regardless if we don't personally care for their opinions or communication style.
I don't think you intend it this way, you may not believe he has the problem he states he does, but he has given his real name here; it can be verified that he has a developmental disability associated with Autism; without that he would not have been able to have qualified for the program that he has qualified for in California.
Ci, is normally kind enough to let me use him as an example, but above and beyond all this is a support site, regardless if we agree with each other or not.
You have a good soul and a very charitable disposition.
I find that Nathan brings out aspects of my personality that I am not proud of and suspect that he creates a similar reaction in other posters.
Maybe you might prevail upon Nathan to modify his behavior as he manages to upset pretty much everybody he comes into contact with.
PS My heartfelt sympathy about you child. I have kids of my own and love them to bits!
Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Attacking opinions here is accepted, it doesn't make the best of friends; I like a tactful exchange of facts when disputing opinions myself, but some don't carry that style. I don't think Ci is here to make friends, more likely to argue his opinion and dedicated interest.
Your were kind enough to accept the fact that lower functioning autistic people need sheltered employment, but even that upsets some people, because it is an admission that some autistic people have an inherent disability.
If anyone in the communication exceeds the rules the moderators will likely moderate the situation. I saw that coming, so it is part of the reason I interceded. The fact that Ci won't change his communication style irritates others and the fact that he can't change it and others don't like that irritates him as well. A bit of a vicious cycle here that I was hoping to shed some light on.
It seems like this is the souce of most of the personal attacks I have seen in some of the threads lately from both sides. Attacking the fact that a person doesn't have a diagnosis is the same general rule breaker as attacking a person for their inherent disability. That's why most of us are here, we are either diagnosed or consider ourselves to have the condition. The heated conversation about the topic opinion will likely go on and be accepted if those other two behaviors are modified.
Not likely Ci will have an adoring audience, but that doesn't seem to be his intention or interest here, instead an argument of his opinion with his own unique style of communication. It's been consistent most every day since November, I don't see that changing, until he moves on to another area of interest.
The discussion is not likely to be pretty, but at least likely to be accepted by the moderators without the personal attacks.
The moderators here are quite gracious and understanding they deserve that respect, as well.
23 Aug 2011, 12:24 am
The threats to innovative inclusion by people not diagnosed are not only taboo in origin but reason to believe they have more loyalty to their own abilities as the applicable claim successes in life but clear reason to see their advocacy toward it as that of injustice. There applicable situations are not what the efforts are for and their hatred reason to believe they are not in the best interest of myself or others. In fact I have good communications and mutual respectability with all those whom I work with. It's here where an ingrained political framework exists that at times perceives compassion as pity and an insult that the worse kinds of hatred that a so called N.T could do seem to manifest. This is why to me not only should they be deemed a whole set of other individuals with maybe a different kind of autism like very high functioning but a potential threat to efforts to be included simply because their version of autism in their lives is not what it is like for myself and a % of others. Instead of the brotherly community welcoming and the love for progress as what one might expect I've been introduced to the aspie perspective with acts of social political war seeking to destroy my and others hope. This to me is evidence of political intents not in the best interest of individuals with disabilities.
Not everything about autism is about them and they need to respect this and back off. In my life I have confidence in what I am doing. In their lives simply because I and others need certain approaches to help this they are insulted due to an image of autism not supporting genuineness entirely. I believe this is the very most self-centered when it comes to autism a political perspective can be. Essentially they are threatening advocacy many have asked for and that is employment by us for us and equality. For their own terms to be included with their abilities and perspective they need to do that themselves so they can be respected technological geniuses and so on but in their own way. I am not a genius and just want to be included like everyone else and if you threaten that and seek to destroy it and the hope you will be treated as not N.T's but the true bigots some claim the N.T's are.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
23 Aug 2011, 12:43 am
ci wrote:
The threats to innovative inclusion by people not diagnosed are not only taboo in origin but reason to believe they have more loyalty to their own abilities as the applicable claim successes in life but clear reason to see their advocacy toward it as that of injustice. There applicable situations are not what the efforts are for and their hatred reason to believe they are not in the best interest of myself or others. In fact I have good communications and mutual respectability with all those whom I work with. It's here where an ingrained political framework exists that at times perceives compassion as pity and an insult that the worse kinds of hatred that a so called N.T could do seem to manifest. This is why to me not only should they be deemed a whole set of other individuals with maybe a different kind of autism like very high functioning but a potential threat to efforts to be included simply because their version of autism in their lives is not what it is like for myself and a % of others. Instead of the brotherly community welcoming and the love for progress as what one might expect I've been introduced to the aspie perspective with acts of social political war seeking to destroy my and others hope. This to me is evidence of political intents not in the best interest of individuals with disabilities.
Not everything about autism is about them and they need to respect this and back off. In my life I have confidence in what I am doing. In their lives simply because I and others need certain approaches to help this they are insulted due to an image of autism not supporting genuineness entirely. I believe this is the very most self-centered when it comes to autism a political perspective can be. Essentially they are threatening advocacy many have asked for and that is employment by us for us and equality. For their own terms to be included with their abilities and perspective they need to do that themselves so they can be respected technological geniuses and so on but in their own way. I am not a genius and just want to be included like everyone else and if you threaten that and seek to destroy it and the hope you will be treated as not N.T's but the true bigots some claim the N.T's are.
Not everything about autism is about them and they need to respect this and back off. In my life I have confidence in what I am doing. In their lives simply because I and others need certain approaches to help this they are insulted due to an image of autism not supporting genuineness entirely. I believe this is the very most self-centered when it comes to autism a political perspective can be. Essentially they are threatening advocacy many have asked for and that is employment by us for us and equality. For their own terms to be included with their abilities and perspective they need to do that themselves so they can be respected technological geniuses and so on but in their own way. I am not a genius and just want to be included like everyone else and if you threaten that and seek to destroy it and the hope you will be treated as not N.T's but the true bigots some claim the N.T's are.
Why should we back off?
Don't your activities bear up to scrutiny?
You come on here spouting clap trap and gibberish. We do not force you. Grow up you big baby.
23 Aug 2011, 12:47 am
Not only do they but your folks don't. Only hostility from pride in exception for a few interactions. Pride cannot push it's agenda on a civil rights protected organization such as mine. It's protected under special laws no matter whom you contact to try to remove my rights to be part of the community and seek to impair my efforts as what is covered under the law. Another wrong headed approach by nasty pride that ought to be put in it's place in public for others to see if you folks stop hiding behind your PC's who do it.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
23 Aug 2011, 1:10 am
ci wrote:
Not only do they but your folks don't. Only hostility from pride in exception for a few interactions. Pride cannot push it's agenda on a civil rights protected organization such as mine. It's protected under special laws no matter whom you contact to try to remove my rights to be part of the community and seek to impair my efforts as what is covered under the law. Another wrong headed approach by nasty pride that ought to be put in it's place in public for others to see if you folks stop hiding behind your PC's who do it.
I do not have any affiliations with any movement or organisation.
I accept that you have an unfortunate condition that prevents you from posting in a sensible manner.
However, you really ought to get a handle on your paranoid tendencies.
23 Aug 2011, 2:28 am
Good your lack of affiliation was what I would like for you to say. As the pressures on others have been a certain way to reject individuals rights in treatment I believe a simple reversal upon them will get others to simply not affiliate and think about the bigger issues. As far as paranoia I think you have simple failed to realize a constructiveness intended. Continuing to put me down simply because I do not order words like you is a little low and insinuating I must go to school in order to speak to the likes of you is a bit unreasonable but I appreciate the fact you backed off of it a bit. With regards to mental illness according to my Harvard graduate autism specialist I do not have mental illness and I have studies the nature of delusions specifically and their generic complexes in subjects enough to know how they might theoretically work among more then a few. Specifically the whole N.T's are Nazi's crowd which I have spoken against and yet that seems unacceptable as well? These types of advocates will do myself and others no good with their alienation of whole people types.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
23 Aug 2011, 9:32 am
ci wrote:
Good your lack of affiliation was what I would like for you to say.
Given how many times you mentioned ASAN whilst talking to and about me I doubt that you wouldn't pass the opportunity.ci wrote:
As far as paranoia I think you have simple failed to realize a constructiveness intended.
I am thankful that a person with such a visceral hatred of all of his critics is also as unintelligible as Zero Wing.
23 Aug 2011, 11:05 am
Hi ci, I see the ASAN Inturns are on the job.
One was not enough, so now groups, and threats?
Pride might cover other things, but autism covers a lot of ground, in a very few people, no two alike.
It was Pride who came here to organize terror attacks on Autism Walks, and threatened me with being banned for calling them what they were, terrorists and extortionists.
Nothing has changed.
23 Aug 2011, 1:27 pm
Inventor wrote:
Hi ci, I see the ASAN Inturns are on the job.
It was Pride who came here to organize terror attacks on Autism Walks, and threatened me with being banned for calling them what they were, terrorists and extortionists.
Nothing has changed.
It was Pride who came here to organize terror attacks on Autism Walks, and threatened me with being banned for calling them what they were, terrorists and extortionists.
Nothing has changed.
Did you say I worked for ASAN? I don't work for any group. Also, do you have any proof that they were terrorists and extortionists?
23 Aug 2011, 1:55 pm
Gedrene wrote:
ci wrote:
Good your lack of affiliation was what I would like for you to say.
Given how many times you mentioned ASAN whilst talking to and about me I doubt that you wouldn't pass the opportunity.ci wrote:
As far as paranoia I think you have simple failed to realize a constructiveness intended.
I am thankful that a person with such a visceral hatred of all of his critics is also as unintelligible as Zero Wing.
Well I know I am someone without hatred thatsjust how I've always been. I see ASAN as a threat simply because of how they conduct advocacy and I don't like the anti-N.T rhetoric because it creates harmful despondency. Advocacy like that creates a world in which it is harder to be included instead of a lack of awareness before. Being a critic is fine and helping is better but I question your intention and some others when they imagine into and attempt to destroy what is not even for them as that is extraordinarily selfish and not in the best interest of myself who is not as included as they. So I simply perceive them as again a threat. To me the online self-advocacy community is ripe of instability, at times extremism and philosophies against the world that do not find hope but incite conflict and hard feelings with those that do help such as ASAN's abortion and related guilt politics so give the likes of them money when they are already included. That was their choice in approach and others should not be dragged into their mess and I'm hoping the so called N.T's won't politically punish those not involved by realizing they may just be a special interest group designed to make perspectives fail and it effects innocent lives.
It will take some time but the some people that associate with autism confronting efforts for individuals with forms of autism that are different from them they have no part in as it's not for them. They should be perceived akin to what the N.T's are considered as they are already included, not disabled as they say and successful. Their attempts to destroy and not be helpful as to care by making suggestions without mal-intentions are a greater injustice then that of any behavior of N.T's simply because as seeds they enable hatred when it's not even for or about them. All of which are easily overcome.
Again your not even diagnosed so the public doesn't take you seriously as a self-advocate and even then with your potentially and likely classified as a so called N.T jsut make N.T look bad but I'd rather you stand upon your own merits then that of them.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
23 Aug 2011, 6:24 pm
Inventor wrote:
Hi ci, I see the ASAN Inturns are on the job.
One was not enough, so now groups, and threats?
Pride might cover other things, but autism covers a lot of ground, in a very few people, no two alike.
It was Pride who came here to organize terror attacks on Autism Walks, and threatened me with being banned for calling them what they were, terrorists and extortionists.
Nothing has changed.
One was not enough, so now groups, and threats?
Pride might cover other things, but autism covers a lot of ground, in a very few people, no two alike.
It was Pride who came here to organize terror attacks on Autism Walks, and threatened me with being banned for calling them what they were, terrorists and extortionists.
Nothing has changed.
"terror attacks"....... "terrorists and extortionists"? Can you back that up with proof?
23 Aug 2011, 6:29 pm
While I wouldn't say terrorism I'd say abortion guilt trips and in combination with inappropriate and unethical political strategies using abortion politics to try and get money from the public so to make them feel bad and pay up. It was desperate and for this reason and the anti-compassion remarks of pity are the only reasons I never officially affiliated with ASAN. Other then that the preservation of treatment right advancements I think the premise and the organizing ability is good. I'd focus on more positive and unifying methods myself but because of the poor approaches to matters that are politically hostile and unethical creating division and strategies that seem to back fire they don't have my support.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
23 Aug 2011, 6:48 pm
ci wrote:
While I wouldn't say terrorism I'd say abortion guilt trips and in combination with inappropriate and unethical political strategies using abortion politics to try and get money from the public so to make them feel bad and pay up. It was desperate and for this reason and the anti-compassion remarks of pity are the only reasons I never officially affiliated with ASAN. Other then that the preservation of treatment right advancements I think the premise and the organizing ability is good. I'd focus on more positive and unifying methods myself but because of the poor approaches to matters that are politically hostile and unethical creating division and strategies that seem to back fire they don't have my support.
Congratulations Ci
That post was actually understandable.
Keep it up!
23 Aug 2011, 8:10 pm
IF you ask a specific question I will explain in detail step by step.
_________________
The peer politics creating intolerance toward compassion is coming to an end. Pity accusations, indifferent advocacy against isolation awareness and for pride in an image of autism is injustice. http://www.autismselfadvocacynetwork.com
