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jackbus01
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28 Oct 2011, 8:21 am

I thought I knew how to talk a subject to death.
I came upon this thread and realized how little I knew.
Here is another idiom for you all:

"to beat a dead horse"

as in to continue this thread would be like beating a dead horse.



Tambourine-Man
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28 Oct 2011, 9:21 am

jackbus01 wrote:
I thought I knew how to talk a subject to death.
I came upon this thread and realized how little I knew.
Here is another idiom for you all:

"to beat a dead horse"

as in to continue this thread would be like beating a dead horse.


Well said.


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28 Oct 2011, 9:38 am

i agree with who ever said this thead is starting to degenerate.lets get back "ON TOPIC" and be more political and less personal.


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28 Oct 2011, 9:47 am

myth wrote:
The fact that this thread hasn't become an all-out flame war really speaks for the tolerance of the members of this forum :)

Anywhere else I've ever tried to bring up any points about anything at all, I am immediately viciously attacked.

I am the only one who has disagreed with what you said. I did not flame you. That's an accusation and a half.



Gedrene
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28 Oct 2011, 9:51 am

Tambourine-Man wrote:
jackbus01 wrote:
I thought I knew how to talk a subject to death.
I came upon this thread and realized how little I knew.
Here is another idiom for you all:

"to beat a dead horse"

as in to continue this thread would be like beating a dead horse.


Well said.


Can I ask where I have done anything wrong? Because I know where others have.
Only when I do the right thing to certain people do they finally get at some point to throwing their hands in the air and implying that I am going over old ground too much when it's not my fault for causing a problem. What a surprise.



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28 Oct 2011, 9:56 am

Gedrene, I said that this thread does NOT contain flaming and ELSEWHERE I (and I'm sure you) would have been visciously attacked. It was a compliment to you and the members of this forum. I'm not sure you even ever disagreed with me on here.

For all you crisize others for not reading what you said, I'd think you would have been more careful.


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Gedrene
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28 Oct 2011, 10:00 am

myth wrote:
Gedrene, I said that this thread does NOT contain flaming and ELSEWHERE I (and I'm sure you) would have been visciously attacked. It was a compliment to you and the members of this forum. I'm not sure you even ever disagreed with me on here.

For all you crisize others for not reading what you said, I'd think you would have been more careful.


My apologies. I admit to my mistake.

Well I am thankful that I haven't actually flamed anyone at all. My apologies Myth; it's hard when people keep trying to play semantic games with you, and then another starts making these desultory impersonal swipes at you with these made up characteristics of autism.



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28 Oct 2011, 10:50 am

No problem :)


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Tambourine-Man
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28 Oct 2011, 11:46 am

Gedrene wrote:
myth wrote:
Gedrene, I said that this thread does NOT contain flaming and ELSEWHERE I (and I'm sure you) would have been visciously attacked. It was a compliment to you and the members of this forum. I'm not sure you even ever disagreed with me on here.

For all you crisize others for not reading what you said, I'd think you would have been more careful.


My apologies. I admit to my mistake.

Well I am thankful that I haven't actually flamed anyone at all. My apologies Myth; it's hard when people keep trying to play semantic games with you, and then another starts making these desultory impersonal swipes at you with these made up characteristics of autism.


Ok, if the characteristics I listed were ones that I "made up" myself, how would you characterize autism?

What is autism?


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28 Oct 2011, 12:16 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
When used as an idiom Part and parcel metaphorically or figuratively means the literal definition of integral along with other meanings like important part of. The phrase Part and parcel literally means nothing other than two words put together with different literal meanings. It sounds to me like you are saying the opposite in the preceding quote.

Nope.
Gedrene wrote:
So part and parcel doesn't have anything to do with parts or parcels, but it literally means integral or unavoidable. It doesn't metaphorically mean integral. That is a major english error."

Seems you can't read. See how the bold and underlined bits match up. See how It doesn't in the italic means it doesn't.

aghogday wrote:
That's the way I read it.

Your comprehension needs brushing up.

aghogday wrote:
Now that you presented the other statement that clarifies that part and parcel metaphorically means the literal definition of integral, I think it clarifies the statement I disputed, I read the statement I disputed, literally instead of what it appears you intended by it. So seems a literal dispute over literal

And you started it for no reason. Congratulations.

aghogday wrote:
While an important part of something, may seem like a universal part of something to you, it doesn't necessarily mean that to other people.

And here we go again.... I am sorry but unless the definition is unavoidable part or integral to then then you're not not talking about part and parcel. Two of the examples I gave were american so don't play some semantics game or game of patriotism.

Gedrene wrote:

aghogday wrote:
This is not Aghogday's Quote this is Nostromo's Quote
The expression 'part and parcel' is not as decisive as it might sometimes seem, or as the definition might seem to say..it depends on the context so it can mean something like 'comes with' which is not really a definitive thing, but a general statement.

Wrong, again.

Part and parcel has only such a meaning of definitive and absolute and unavoidable. It never had any other meaning and the only way one could avoid the fact that part and parcel meant integral was by lying to themselves.

Part and Parcel (or part-parcel)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/part_and_parcel
(idiomatic) An integral or essential piece; that which must be done or accepted as part of something else. Regular maintenance is part and parcel of owning a car.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... cel-of-sth
to be a necessary feature of a particular experience, which cannot be avoided

http://thesaurus.com/browse/part-parcel
Definition: an essential part

So basically you find a site that says 'american' on it and you instantly think only you are talking about the 'american' way of saying it. Well, wrong. Even the example that you give shows that you are wrong because:
Quote:
The house that we bought is part and parcel of a much larger piece of property.

It confirms the integral point I made. If anything in that case important was misused. You want me to find more examples that confirm only integral or words to that effect?


You have attributed somone else's quote to me three times now. I pointed it out to you before. I would appreciate it if you would edit your posts to attribute the posts to who they belong to. I bolded it above as I did in the other post. I was nice enough to state it was probably an honest mistake, and will still believe it is now for the third time.

I was nice enough to state that I read yout statement literally and you may have meant something entirely different. I have yet to personally attack you; so far you have said I can't read, am lying, need to improve my comprehension, etc. I could say a whole lot of things directly to you, that are less offensive, but they aren't required to make factual points backed up by evidence

Bottom line, the metaphorical meaning of part and parcel is integral, or important part of, that's backed up by evidence linked below, on the way idioms work.

You interpret the actual idiom part and parcel like you want, and I will interpret interpret it like I want. Idioms aren't part of the formal english language, they are colloquial metaphors, meaning different things in different local contexts, per wiki. That's a fact backed up by evidence, not my opinion.

You seem to still be standing behind your statement above that part and parcel literally means integral. If you accept that part and parcel metaphorically means integral, that's great, but it's not clear to me from your post. That's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of fact evidenced in the link below.


http://www.readwritethink.org/files/resources/interactives/idioms/idiom_1.html

Nothing I just said is my opinion. It is all backed up by evidence, so if you would like to dispute it, dispute it with the folks that own Wiki, the American Idiom site I provided, or this link that I just provided that proves the metaphorical (not the literal) meaning of part and parcel is integral.



Last edited by aghogday on 28 Oct 2011, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gedrene
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28 Oct 2011, 12:36 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
myth wrote:
Gedrene, I said that this thread does NOT contain flaming and ELSEWHERE I (and I'm sure you) would have been visciously attacked. It was a compliment to you and the members of this forum. I'm not sure you even ever disagreed with me on here.

For all you crisize others for not reading what you said, I'd think you would have been more careful.


My apologies. I admit to my mistake.

Well I am thankful that I haven't actually flamed anyone at all. My apologies Myth; it's hard when people keep trying to play semantic games with you, and then another starts making these desultory impersonal swipes at you with these made up characteristics of autism.


Ok, if the characteristics I listed were ones that I "made up" myself, how would you characterize autism?

What is autism?

I don't characterize autism. I can say what other people officially call autism at its basic level: It is marked by repetitive behaviours and delays or even in very serious cases regression in verbal and non verbal communication.

All sorts of other 'behaviours' have been attributed to autism, mostly by people who want to try and shmooze their way through and sound intelligent or to fool themselves whereas they're usually presumtuous and/or have a hidden agenda.

From diehard ideologues hoping to smear people with various names to silence them to autistics themselves readily claiming that all sorts of important hisotrical figures were autistic on no evidence to satisfy their lack of pride in a hostile atmosphere, the only spectrum that's clear in evidence is the kind of people who make up things about autism.

What I do is talk about people like me, and they aren't all autistics.

You think you can say that you aren't talking about things that are integral or part and parcel, yet in the end you keep tripping over yourself at the same point.



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28 Oct 2011, 1:11 pm

aghogday wrote:
You have attributed somone else's quote to me three times now.

Really? It was nostromo wasn't it? It's hard to tell with such consistency to fact as this:

aghogday wrote:
I was the first one that stated that part and parcel means integral, so why are you suggesting that I stated that it doesn't mean integral?

Despite the fact that I mentioned integral and words to that effect first.

aghogday wrote:
Bottom line, the metaphorical meaning of part and parcel is integral, or important part of, that's backed up by evidence linked below, on the way idioms work.

I gave you three examples, two of which were american and look more professional than your link, and it still sounds like you're trying to say that part and parcel doesn't mean integral and not just 'important but possibly missed out'. Make it clear if you could if you don't mean to say that part and parcel doesn't necessarily mean integral or words to that effect.

aghogday wrote:
Idioms aren't part of the formal english language, they are colloquial metaphors, meaning different things in different local contexts, per wiki. You interpret the actual idiom part and parcel like you want, and I will interpret interpret it like I want.

I don't decide how english is spoken for my convenience.

aghogday wrote:
If you accept that part and parcel metaphorically means integral, that's great, but it's not clear to me from your post. That's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of fact evidenced in the link below.

...and it seems you just decided that too... in the same post without noticing it.

http://www.readwritethink.org/files/res ... iom_1.html <-- This links to a test, not an information site. What are you trying to prove?

By the way, are you going to respond to this any time soon?
Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Here is more evidence from Pychology Today:

What, you mean this psychology today?
http://feministing.com/2011/05/16/racis ... her-women/
http://www.change.org/petitions/psychol ... t-articles
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011 ... _today.php
http://www.adweek.com/news/press/psycho ... tty-131686

I love that last one. It claims that a guy put an article on psychology today that claimed he wanted Ann Coulter to be president because she would nuke the middle east. It was later taken down.

Yes, psychology today, the racist, sexist magazine that has dubious morals. What a worthy source.
How ironic, psychology today also has a very bad history with giving public apologies for their mistakes. That doesn't remind me of any other group...

I was wrong about the last one. It was actually the second to last one.



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28 Oct 2011, 1:29 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Tambourine-Man wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
myth wrote:
Gedrene, I said that this thread does NOT contain flaming and ELSEWHERE I (and I'm sure you) would have been visciously attacked. It was a compliment to you and the members of this forum. I'm not sure you even ever disagreed with me on here.

For all you crisize others for not reading what you said, I'd think you would have been more careful.


My apologies. I admit to my mistake.

Well I am thankful that I haven't actually flamed anyone at all. My apologies Myth; it's hard when people keep trying to play semantic games with you, and then another starts making these desultory impersonal swipes at you with these made up characteristics of autism.


Ok, if the characteristics I listed were ones that I "made up" myself, how would you characterize autism?

What is autism?

I don't characterize autism. I can say what other people officially call autism at its basic level: It is marked by repetitive behaviours and delays or even in very serious cases regression in verbal and non verbal communication.

All sorts of other 'behaviours' have been attributed to autism, mostly by people who want to try and shmooze their way through and sound intelligent or to fool themselves whereas they're usually presumtuous and/or have a hidden agenda.

From diehard ideologues hoping to smear people with various names to silence them to autistics themselves readily claiming that all sorts of important hisotrical figures were autistic on no evidence to satisfy their lack of pride in a hostile atmosphere, the only spectrum that's clear in evidence is the kind of people who make up things about autism.

What I do is talk about people like me, and they aren't all autistics.

You think you can say that you aren't talking about things that are integral or part and parcel, yet in the end you keep tripping over yourself at the same point.


Just for clarification on what the characteristics and symptoms that distinguish autism are from Wiki; The DSMIV does not go into this type of detail about the criteria.

Note the bolded items about problems with figurative language, (The concept formation aspect of abtract reasoning) shared by high functioning autistic individuals as well as Spelling and Vocabulary that are at times better than actual control groups outside of the autistic population (The concept identification aspect of abstract reasoning).

This quoted description from Wiki is based on the "triad of symptoms" that distinguish and characterize Autism. The other symptoms associated with autism are discussed further in the article, but not in this quote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

Characteristics


Autism is a highly variable neurodevelopmental disorder[17] that first appears during infancy or childhood, and generally follows a steady course without remission.[18] Overt symptoms gradually begin after the age of six months, become established by age two or three years,[19] and tend to continue through adulthood, although often in more muted form.[20] It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; and restricted interests and repetitive behavior. Other aspects, such as atypical eating, are also common but are not essential for diagnosis.[21] Autism's individual symptoms occur in the general population and appear not to associate highly, without a sharp line separating pathologically severe from common traits.[22]

Social developmentSocial deficits distinguish autism and the related autism spectrum disorders

(ASD; see Classification) from other developmental disorders.[20] People with autism have social impairments and often lack the intuition about others that many people take for granted. Noted autistic Temple Grandin described her inability to understand the social communication of neurotypicals, or people with normal neural development, as leaving her feeling "like an anthropologist on Mars".[23]

Unusual social development becomes apparent early in childhood. Autistic infants show less attention to social stimuli, smile and look at others less often, and respond less to their own name. Autistic toddlers differ more strikingly from social norms; for example, they have less eye contact and turn taking, and do not have the ability to use simple movements to express themselves, such as the deficiency to point at things.[24]

Three- to five-year-old autistic children are less likely to exhibit social understanding, approach others spontaneously, imitate and respond to emotions, communicate nonverbally, and take turns with others. However, they do form attachments to their primary caregivers.[25]

Most autistic children display moderately less attachment security than non-autistic children, although this difference disappears in children with higher mental development or less severe ASD.[26] Older children and adults with ASD perform worse on tests of face and emotion recognition.[27]

Children with high-functioning autism suffer from more intense and frequent loneliness compared to non-autistic peers, despite the common belief that children with autism prefer to be alone.

Making and maintaining friendships often proves to be difficult for those with autism. For them, the quality of friendships, not the number of friends, predicts how lonely they feel. Functional friendships, such as those resulting in invitations to parties, may affect the quality of life more deeply.[28]

There are many anecdotal reports, but few systematic studies, of aggression and violence in individuals with ASD. The limited data suggest that, in children with mental retardation, autism is associated with aggression, destruction of property, and tantrums. A 2007 study interviewed parents of 67 children with ASD and reported that about two-thirds of the children had periods of severe tantrums and about one-third had a history of aggression, with tantrums significantly more common than in non-autistic children with language impairments.[29] A 2008 Swedish study found that, of individuals aged 15 or older discharged from hospital with a diagnosis of ASD, those who committed violent crimes were significantly more likely to have other psychopathological conditions such as psychosis.[30]

Communication

About a third to a half of individuals with autism do not develop enough natural speech to meet their daily communication needs.[31]

Differences in communication may be present from the first year of life, and may include delayed onset of babbling, unusual gestures, diminished responsiveness, and vocal patterns that are not synchronized with the caregiver.

In the second and third years, autistic children have less frequent and less diverse babbling, consonants, words, and word combinations; their gestures are less often integrated with words.

Autistic children are less likely to make requests or share experiences, and are more likely to simply repeat others' words (echolalia)[32][33] or reverse pronouns.[34]

Joint attention seems to be necessary for functional speech, and deficits in joint attention seem to distinguish infants with ASD:[4] for example, they may look at a pointing hand instead of the pointed-at object,[24][33] and they consistently fail to point at objects in order to comment on or share an experience.[4]

Autistic children may have difficulty with imaginative play and with developing symbols into language.[32][33]

In a pair of studies, high-functioning autistic children aged 8–15 performed equally well as, and adults better than, individually matched controls at basic language tasks involving vocabulary and spelling.

Both autistic groups performed worse than controls at complex language tasks such as figurative language, comprehension and inference.


As people are often sized up initially from their basic language skills, these studies suggest that people speaking to autistic individuals are more likely to overestimate what their audience comprehends. [35]

Repetitive behavior

Autistic individuals display many forms of repetitive or restricted behavior, which the Repetitive Behavior Scale-Revised (RBS-R)[36] categorizes as follows.

A young boy with autism, and the precise line of toys he madeStereotypy is repetitive movement, such as hand flapping, making sounds, head rolling, or body rocking.

Compulsive behavior is intended and appears to follow rules, such as arranging objects in stacks or lines.

Sameness is resistance to change; for example, insisting that the furniture not be moved or refusing to be interrupted.

Ritualistic behavior involves an unvarying pattern of daily activities, such as an unchanging menu or a dressing ritual. This is closely associated with sameness and an independent validation has suggested combining the two factors.[36]

Restricted behavior is limited in focus, interest, or activity, such as preoccupation with a single television program, toy, or game.

Self-injury includes movements that injure or can injure the person, such as eye poking, skin picking, hand biting, and head banging.[4]

A 2007 study reported that self-injury at some point affected about 30% of children with ASD.[29]

No single repetitive or self-injurious behavior seems to be specific to autism, but only autism appears to have an elevated pattern of occurrence and severity of these behaviors.[37]



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28 Oct 2011, 1:44 pm

im not sure why people dont think anymore that dificulties in abstract reasoning are a symtom of autism.also what is wrong with black and white thinking.i think its time to make idiotic savantism envogue again.gotta run need to get back to memorizing that dictionary.ha ha ha


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28 Oct 2011, 1:53 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
The problem with autism self-advocacy is the black and white thinking that comes part and parcel with an autism diagnosis.

Many so-called self-advocates seem to think they are characters in an autistic version of "Star Wars."


You sir, are incredibly wrong. We are characters in an autistic version of "X-Men!" :twisted:



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28 Oct 2011, 2:02 pm

aghogday wrote:
The DSMIV does not go into this type of detail about the criteria.

When wikipedia is more authoritative tham the DSMIV then you know that something is up.

aghogday wrote:
It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; and restricted interests and repetitive bheaviour.

Ah, good.
Gedrene wrote:
I can say what other people officially call autism at its basic level: It is marked by repetitive behaviours and delays or even in very serious cases regression in verbal and non verbal communication

Matches up.



aghogday wrote:
Both autistic groups performed worse than controls at complex language tasks such as figurative language, comprehension and inference.

Aha! Exactly my point. I said that others claimed autism was about communication difficulties in figurative language, not abstract reasoning. Abstract reasoning is not using idioms or metaphors.
Abstract reasoning is knowing that a cat is a cat or that when one says a cat entered a house that they imagine or understand that a cat entered a house or that a picture of a cat on a mat makes them process that a cat is on a mat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_reasoning


PaperthatwasReferenced wrote:
Because the individuals with autism ranged in IQ from 80 to 125 and were below the age of 40, they could be matched to typically developing healthy control individuals, ensuring that the findings were related to autism and not to mental retardation in the autism group.

Yes, and if autistics could not do abstract reasoning they probably would not be able to have an IQ that could even reach that level. How does one even measure IQ if comprehension and inference or figurative language is impaired.
So apparently they have impaired 'higher order functioning' despite the fact that they could still be matched to people with similar IQs. Exactly how did they match people to similar IQs if IQ tests depend on such characteristics most probably.