23 Aug 2020, 7:50 pm
Jiheisho wrote:
vvvvv wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Right now, ASD is a set of behavioral criteria, not causes.
This is part of it exactly. An internal experience is what we are trying to diagnose and we are doing it based solely on observable behaviors. This is generally a good direction to take in science but it's obviously not great either for this area because you can't observe an internal experience and we know little to nothing about the brain. It gets even more complicated in the ASD and AS realm because the whole thing is about how we don't express ourselves or behave in ways traditionally observed.
Jiheisho wrote:
What problem does specifying AS and HFA as separate conditions solve? I am a little unclear.
To me, that's almost equivalent to asking why get a diagnosis at all? It's about actually getting to exist and tell the world that we exist. It's also like saying why separate SAD and MDD? They're both mood disorders involving depression so why keep them separate? The meaning behind two different things is going to be different for different people but the fact is that if they are different then they should be recognized as so. We shouldn't keep going around saying yellow is the same thing as orange. Yes there is some overlap but they are two distinct colors.
It also has societal repercussions as well. People have been trying to develop 'cures' for autism for ages. Treatments and options for people with LFA is obviously a good thing and should be sought after, just as treatment options and such should be available to all on the spectrum for the negative aspects of this disorder. Except if we are treating two different things, then obviously its not going to work right or they'll target the wrong thing that may be fine in HFA but off in AS or vice versa. Again with the MDD and SAD metaphor, both may take and/or need antidepressants but people with SAD often benefit much more from a sun lamp than those with MDD.
It also plays a role in the public is educated and perceives these things. There's already SO much ignorance, stigma, and misunderstanding on what autism means. By lumping two different things together it distorts the truth even further. It means the struggles that are uniquely aspergers get glossed over because we don't exist anymore. It means when we try to communicate these struggles and connect them with autism then people think they're universal. By having a separate category it effectively makes us alone and that on its own sucks.
Also yes I see and recognize the irony in the fact that I just used a color metaphor and colors are a spectrum but what I mean hear is that all mental illness and brain types are different colors and the spectrum is humanity in general not just autism.
Thank you for your reply. I am not suggesting not giving an autism diagnosis. Today, we are diagnosed with ASD.
I am not sure your color analogy addresses my question. What is the current statistic that people diagnosed with AS and those with HFA would have the same conditions? Or in other words, does the diagnosis for AS and HFA become ambiguous with a certain number of people with autism where they are simply falling under a particular diagnosis because of the doctor's perception? Or, to put it into your color analogy, this group is red, but some people describe it as fire-engine red and others cherry red, but they are both the same red.
I agree perception is an issue. Asperger's does have a more positive image. But since this is a spectrum, those just outside that AS diagnosis are going to have the same problem with HFA, they are labelled autistic. But whether you are AS or HFA, you are still autistic.
This division in the autistic community with functional labels has not all been that positive from what I have read. Perhaps it is better to work on education around ASD and focus on the diversity than the functional labels? I am not sure I have an answer.
My diagnosis was not long ago. I am still trying to understand this new world I inhabit. So far, I have just used the terms ASD and autistic, but I am on the high-functioning/Asperger's side of things--I would probably be AS. But then again, I am not known for saying the right things...
I apologize if it seemed I misunderstood you. I was not talking about the absence of an ASD diagnosis either just the absence of and AS one.
Right now it is true about the whole two different colors of red thing but that's not because of what the two things actually are but rather what the doctors know and can identify about them. There are very few experts out there and the majority of people are not diagnosed by them. My point is that if we knew these differences this would allow doctors to see them as two different colors, yellow and orange, rather than two shades of red need research time and development. We have not done that.
The reason people could be seen as two different shades of the same color is that they aren't looking at the whole picture or fully understanding what's going on. You can perceive something as something it's not, two different shades, while all along they were actually two different colors.
When I talk about perception I don't mean that Aspergers has a more positive one. In fact, there are studies that show the stigma is the same since the public no longer differentiates between the two. That is not important. If something is different it should be recognized as different. Aspergers and autism may overlap, just like many other things in the DSM but they are not the same thing. Aspergers is not the same thing as autism. By calling it that, it further damages the understanding of both.
23 Aug 2020, 8:56 pm
vvvvv wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
vvvvv wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Right now, ASD is a set of behavioral criteria, not causes.
This is part of it exactly. An internal experience is what we are trying to diagnose and we are doing it based solely on observable behaviors. This is generally a good direction to take in science but it's obviously not great either for this area because you can't observe an internal experience and we know little to nothing about the brain. It gets even more complicated in the ASD and AS realm because the whole thing is about how we don't express ourselves or behave in ways traditionally observed.
Jiheisho wrote:
What problem does specifying AS and HFA as separate conditions solve? I am a little unclear.
To me, that's almost equivalent to asking why get a diagnosis at all? It's about actually getting to exist and tell the world that we exist. It's also like saying why separate SAD and MDD? They're both mood disorders involving depression so why keep them separate? The meaning behind two different things is going to be different for different people but the fact is that if they are different then they should be recognized as so. We shouldn't keep going around saying yellow is the same thing as orange. Yes there is some overlap but they are two distinct colors.
It also has societal repercussions as well. People have been trying to develop 'cures' for autism for ages. Treatments and options for people with LFA is obviously a good thing and should be sought after, just as treatment options and such should be available to all on the spectrum for the negative aspects of this disorder. Except if we are treating two different things, then obviously its not going to work right or they'll target the wrong thing that may be fine in HFA but off in AS or vice versa. Again with the MDD and SAD metaphor, both may take and/or need antidepressants but people with SAD often benefit much more from a sun lamp than those with MDD.
It also plays a role in the public is educated and perceives these things. There's already SO much ignorance, stigma, and misunderstanding on what autism means. By lumping two different things together it distorts the truth even further. It means the struggles that are uniquely aspergers get glossed over because we don't exist anymore. It means when we try to communicate these struggles and connect them with autism then people think they're universal. By having a separate category it effectively makes us alone and that on its own sucks.
Also yes I see and recognize the irony in the fact that I just used a color metaphor and colors are a spectrum but what I mean hear is that all mental illness and brain types are different colors and the spectrum is humanity in general not just autism.
Thank you for your reply. I am not suggesting not giving an autism diagnosis. Today, we are diagnosed with ASD.
I am not sure your color analogy addresses my question. What is the current statistic that people diagnosed with AS and those with HFA would have the same conditions? Or in other words, does the diagnosis for AS and HFA become ambiguous with a certain number of people with autism where they are simply falling under a particular diagnosis because of the doctor's perception? Or, to put it into your color analogy, this group is red, but some people describe it as fire-engine red and others cherry red, but they are both the same red.
I agree perception is an issue. Asperger's does have a more positive image. But since this is a spectrum, those just outside that AS diagnosis are going to have the same problem with HFA, they are labelled autistic. But whether you are AS or HFA, you are still autistic.
This division in the autistic community with functional labels has not all been that positive from what I have read. Perhaps it is better to work on education around ASD and focus on the diversity than the functional labels? I am not sure I have an answer.
My diagnosis was not long ago. I am still trying to understand this new world I inhabit. So far, I have just used the terms ASD and autistic, but I am on the high-functioning/Asperger's side of things--I would probably be AS. But then again, I am not known for saying the right things...
I apologize if it seemed I misunderstood you. I was not talking about the absence of an ASD diagnosis either just the absence of and AS one.
Right now it is true about the whole two different colors of red thing but that's not because of what the two things actually are but rather what the doctors know and can identify about them. There are very few experts out there and the majority of people are not diagnosed by them. My point is that if we knew these differences this would allow doctors to see them as two different colors, yellow and orange, rather than two shades of red need research time and development. We have not done that.
The reason people could be seen as two different shades of the same color is that they aren't looking at the whole picture or fully understanding what's going on. You can perceive something as something it's not, two different shades, while all along they were actually two different colors.
When I talk about perception I don't mean that Aspergers has a more positive one. In fact, there are studies that show the stigma is the same since the public no longer differentiates between the two. That is not important. If something is different it should be recognized as different. Aspergers and autism may overlap, just like many other things in the DSM but they are not the same thing. Aspergers is not the same thing as autism. By calling it that, it further damages the understanding of both.
AS was only ever understood in relation to autism. Every single explanation of AS described it as being on the autistic spectrum, and it was even called autism by Asperger himself. I think it was for the sake of understanding AS better that it was merged with ASD. Otherwise people didn't even really know what it was until they learned about it. But people know what autism is, or they think they know anyway. Of course they might be wrong in what they know, but at least people have heard of autism. AS, they hadn't heard of and then they'd all go "oh, I see, it's on the autistic spectrum, that makes sense, now I think I kind of understand"...so the descendant solution was...why don't we just call it autism? It's known for being a spectrum anyway, so AS should fit in well there given that it has categorically been defined as part of that spectrum, from its inception...
24 Aug 2020, 12:32 am
vvvvv wrote:
I want to be perfectly clear: My objection to combining the terms to a spectrum has absolutely nothing to do with me thinking I'm different because I can function close to normal. That is not what this is about..
No problems, glad we cleared that up
vvvvv wrote:
Something that everyone often forgets is that none of the experts have agreed on how mirror neurons work in general let alone in this area (We know what mirror neurons do but not exactly how it works). No one knows how mirror neurons play role in ASD other than they do. Some people say there's a lack of them. More recently people have argued there's an excess. Eitherway they're clearly involved (probably anyway) and I'd be curious to see if things differed in this domain as well.
.
.
Intuitively there would be an issue with mirror neurons in those with HFA but is the differences biologically relate to one thing? or is there like a connectivity issue impacting multiple sites in the brain?
This reminds me of schizophrenia where two people with identical brain scans and genetic coding can manifest symptoms completely differently. Aspies might have the same areas impacted as HFA but the level of impact may not be as serious on function?
24 Aug 2020, 1:57 pm
24 Aug 2020, 3:39 pm
24 Aug 2020, 4:29 pm
24 Aug 2020, 9:31 pm
24 Aug 2020, 10:11 pm
lostonearth35
Veteran
Joined: 5 Jan 2010
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,896
Location: On a planet where I don't belong.
24 Aug 2020, 10:36 pm
24 Aug 2020, 11:13 pm
25 Aug 2020, 1:55 am
25 Aug 2020, 3:08 am
25 Aug 2020, 4:34 am
25 Aug 2020, 4:42 am
25 Aug 2020, 5:33 am
25 Aug 2020, 7:05 am
The problem seems to me that there are people who dislike to distinguish between rather different things. I guess that those don't even like to agree that there is a difference between a chimp and a human. Or a negro and a kaukasian. Why distinguish them if all of them have things in common like ears, eyes, arms and hands? 
There may be overlapping traits but if you can clearly distinguish between AS and HFA then they should be separated just because they are different and need a different treatment.
_________________
I am as I am.
Life has to be an adventure!
