Vaccine-Induced Disease, Animal Research & Medical Hypoc

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Oooookay, so a little while ago I got into a debate with a neurologist ("Randy"), someone with extensive experience with toxicological "safety" testing, about animal research. The conversation got into vaccines, which was necessary for me to make my point. Long story short, I outdid myself and haven't heard from "Randy" in over a month (this is what always seems to happen, and just when it started getting good too...) I was getting sick of all the misconceptions and disinformation about vaccines on this site, so I decided to lay down some TRUTH, mofo!

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Randy said:

“Oh, look. Now we've got an animal study (remember back when you were insisting they're totally not predictive of human outcomes?) showing a theoretical link between a military vaccine adjuvant and a disease totally unrelated to autism [Aluminum adjuvant linked to gulf war illness induces motor neuron death in mice -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17114826].”

Well, well, well. Randy, the man who absolutely refuses to debate fairly. Since you seem to be so keen on putting words into my mouth, let me clarify that I never said that animal tests are “totally not predictive of human outcomes”. The truth is more subtle than that… although it is true that in many cases animal tests hopelessly confuse the issue of drug/chemical safety.

In some cases, they can be quite accurate. For example, I don’t know of a SINGLE animal test, or biological test such as in vitro, that shows that Thimerosal is not harmful. The crap seems to be universally dangerous to all living things (except for pathogenic bacteria, ironically—it has been shown to be a poor vaccine preservative). Please refer to RFK jr’s “Tobacco Science and the Thimerosal Scandal” for references to animal tests that have shown the neurotoxicity of Thimerosal, and evidence that Thimerosal doesn’t even effectively sterilize vaccine mixtures.

If it were up to me, we wouldn’t have to do animal tests to show that substances like mercury and aluminum compounds (which are in many vaccines, not just “military” vaccines) should not be injected into young children. But you would likely insist that this is an emotional, not scientific point of view. So I provide animal tests, which is presumably what you wanted to see. The study has already been done, it doesn’t make a difference for the victims whether I use it here or not.

Yet you still shoot it down. Funny thing is, this is what I predicted. I said that animal tests tended to be ignored when they provided unfavorable outcomes, and promoted when they showed the desired outcome. Your arguments support this contention, because you are doing this yourself. So I guess we can end this debate now! You seem to concede (a) that animal tests are not a reliable predictor of human outcomes—comparable results can only be verified after knowing the effects in humans.

You said, earlier in this discussion:

“As for your quote ‘More than 800 chemicals have been defined as teratogens in laboratory animals, but only a few of these, approximately 20, have been shown to be teratogenic in humans. This discrepancy can be attributed to differences in metabolism, sensitivity and exposure time.’ (Dr Beat Schmid, Trends in Pharmacological Sciences; 8:133, 1987)

“--This is hardly surprising. This exact notion was also examined by Schardein. First, this does not mean 780 chemicals were teratogenic in animals, but not in man. Only one substance known to be teratogenic in humans had not been found to be teratogenic in animals as of 1985.

“Consider:
1. Most of these compounds aren't drugs, so they have never been systematically administered to humans. They are typically things found in occupational settings, in the environment, in food, etc.

“2. Schardein notes that human epidemiological data outside of the clinical setting is not reliable, and has only ever discovered 3 teratogens. Thus, for most of these 780 substances, there is no means to confirm human teratogenicity.

“3. The only way to prove that these substances are not human teratogens would be to conduct a clinically controlled trial. (Good luck convincing expectant mothers to eat pesticide to see if their babies become deformed).”

Very fascinating testimony. Since “this does not mean 780 chemicals were teratogenic in animals, but not in man”, and since you insist that animal tests are generally predictive of human outcomes, even if more than one species needs to be cross-referenced, wouldn’t the logical conclusion be that a good proportion of the chemicals on the market ARE teratogenic? Even if the animal tests provide little insight into precisely which ones? So you concede (b) that animal outcomes “can be deemed inapplicable when necessary, ignored when convenient”, in the words of Dr Robert Sharpe.

By the way, it isn’t a given that GWS is “totally unrelated to autism”, as you say. For example, please reference the paper Chronic Mycoplasmal Infections in Gulf War Veterans’ Children and Autism Patients
(http://www.gulfwarvets.com/chronic_infections.htm):

“Autism patients have systemic bacterial, viral and fungal infections that may play an important part in their illnesses. We found that immediate family members of veterans diagnosed with Gulf War Illnesses (GWI) often complain of fatigue and other problems, and upon analysis they report similar signs and symptoms as their veteran family members, except that their children are often diagnosed with Autism.”

Dr. Blaylock explains, “Most neurological disorders, both acute and chronic, have a common set of pathological events despite their varying clinical presentations.” Indeed, we are dealing with autistic SPECTRUM disorders. So, despite the bewildering variety of disorders with confusing names and huge wealthy charities seeking “cures” that will never be found, perhaps the truth is that research into the alleged “genetic” basis of these disorders only serves to hopelessly overcomplicate the issue and distract from real solutions.

Here’s an interesting example (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 7.abstract):

“Dravet syndrome is a rare epileptic encephalopathy linked to mutations in SCN1A (neuronal sodium channel α1 subunit) and characterized by an onset in infancy with polymorphous seizure types and developmental decline. It was reported recently that a proportion of patients previously diagnosed with alleged vaccine encephalopathy might possess SCN1A mutations and clinical histories that enabled a diagnosis of Dravet syndrome, but these results have not been replicated.

“We present here the cases of 5 children who presented for epilepsy care with presumed parental diagnoses of alleged vaccine encephalopathy caused by pertussis vaccinations in infancy. Their conditions were all rediagnosed years later, with the support of genetic testing, as Dravet syndrome. We hope that these cases will raise awareness of Dravet syndrome among health care providers who care for children and adolescents and aid in earlier recognition and diagnosis.”

How convenient that we can always make up new “genetic” diseases to avoid the diagnosis of vaccine complications. However, according to Dr. Michael Godfrey, "It is impossible to have a sudden epidemic of a genetic disease. The genetic factor or other predisposing weakening factor is there but it needed the environmental trigger to make it surface. That's why we think the genetic inability to excrete mercury e.g. Apo-E4 and/or a metallothionine abnormality underlies those that crash after being exposed to mercury injections."

Note that autism has overlapping symptoms with “Dravet syndrome” as well as epilepsy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21620773

You said:

"Finally, a paper that's actually good [Neurotoxic Effects of Postnatal Thimerosal are Mouse Strain Dependent -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15184908]. It only supports a theoretical link between thimerosal and disruption of neural development a completely abnormal strain of mice though. Now, tell me how well does this strain (whose genetic problems are not limited to auto-immunity) represent human auto-immune susceptibility. The study definitely suggests a link may exist and warrants further examination--but even the authors note that this isn't conclusively demonstrated by this paper.”

Well, see, once more, you’ve called attention to the questionable benefits of animal testing. You ask how this strain of mouse represents human auto-immune susceptibility. Then how does any strain? Why even do the tests at all?
Do you remember when I pointed out that Dr. Somers’ studies that found teratogenicity in mice were dismissed by Chemie Grunenthal on the grounds that he must have been using a “particularly sensitive strain of mouse”? History is repeating itself.

This is what IOM panelist Steven Goodman, MD, MHS, PhD, an associate professor of oncology and epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, told Medscape: "This type of study, while certainly interesting, in no way substitutes for actual human evidence. We don't have an animal model for autism” [it’s highly debatable that we have an animal model for ANY human disorder] “and we don't understand exactly what causes autism or what its exact pathophysiology is in humans.” [and how is animal testing supposed to lead us to this?] “So we don't understand it completely in either system at the moment, and we certainly don't understand to what extent one is a model for the other."

Here is what the author of this study, Associate Professor Dr. Mady Hornig, said: “The same immune response genes in mice that predict mercury-related immunotoxicity also predict neurodevelopmental damage in our model and are associated with the development of features reminiscent of those observed in autism. These include generalised impoverishment of behavioural responses and abnormal reactions to novel environments, brain enlargement, correlated closely with the observed behavioural abnormalities in exploration and anxiety, increased cell packing in the hippocampus, and disturbances in glutamate receptors and transporters.”

This is all very interesting, but the bottom line is that both you and this Medscape article are beautifully demonstrating my point that animal tests are open to interpretation, and this is abused for political-economic purposes.

The article continues: ‘"We didn't say that investigations shouldn't continue in the lab on the effects of mercury, on the effects of thimerosal, and on the causes and profiles of autism," Dr. Goodman said. "Where the committee thought that research dollars probably shouldn't go, at least for the moment, are these large-scale epidemiologic studies linking autism and thimerosal exposure."

‘But Dr. Hornig countered that the design of published epidemiologic studies may have been inadequate to appropriately estimate risk. Although MHC and non-MHC genes, age, sex, nutrition, route and frequency of administration, and maturity of the metabolic, immune, and nervous systems are known to affect mercury toxicokinetics, previous studies have not evaluated such factors.

‘"The pronouncement that research funds are better applied elsewhere effectively forecloses any possibility of federal funding for an entire field of research," she said. "The timing is particularly unfortunate given that we are only just beginning to define the mechanisms by which environmental factors such as thimerosal interact with immune response genes during early development."’

VERRRRY interesting. One of the most important things that you and this article (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/480683) indicate is that all animals, including humans, differ substantially in their genetics even within the same species, meaning that even if the majority are relatively unharmed, there can still be severe adverse reactions in a minority of the population.

"Even without knowledge of a specific gene association, we can consider the impact of gene prevalence on our statistical capacity to demonstrate effects of potential toxins in a population, should they exist," Dr. Hornig said. Note that there hasn’t been any effort to determine if a small percentage of children [or pets, farm animals, etc...] are genetically susceptible to being harmed by ‘one size fits all’ mass vaccination policies.

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My complete rebuttal-
http://bitterbonker.livejournal.com/91876.html

The original discussion can be found here-
http://artvoice.com/issues/v10n37/week_ ... z1evRRVfpk