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DemonAbyss10
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24 Apr 2010, 10:23 pm

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The Buddha said it well, "Desire is the root of all suffering."

Humans yearn for what they think they are not, yet never explore what they are.

I like the Grimm Brothers, not enough nailing red hot iron shoes onto stepmothers and making them dance till they die, in recent work.

Cinderella is a tale everyone loves.

The plot is an orphan girl is offered help by a Fairy Godmother, she is taught to dance, and then scrubbed pink, perfumed, her hair done, dressed in the finest clothes, sent in a rental coach to a ball, where she dances with a Prince. To avoid being busted for sneaking out late at night she runs, loses a glass slipper, and the Prince declares he will marry the girl that fits it.

She is a little girl, the Fairy Godmother would be called Madam, Procurer, who teaches little girls to dance, makes them all beautiful and older looking, then presents them to men who can afford such things. The tiny glass slipper will only fit a child.

When a long term contract is offered, Private Property, after Prince fish has a wiff of the bait, the deal is closed when she fits the shoe. Being as he is a Prince, there is no mention of the character of a rich man who buys little girls. They live happly ever after is all she is told. She will have nice things, from Victoria's Secret.

So it is a story of how to market orphan girls without a dowery. It's the best deal they are going to get, and it helps if they are willing, not knowing what, but willing. They would do anything to get out of the life they are living, anything. Her current life is made to seem extra dull, hopeless, for some depression is a great motivator.

The Little Mermaid is also willing to trade her fishy tail for a place on land.

Dear Beatrix Potter calls her little girl rabbits, Flopsy, Mopsy, and Cotton Tail.

Snow White, the pure one, is hated by the aging who do not get that spark from men. They would cut out her heart and eat it, poison her, and her only hope is finding a Prince. Another how to manipulate little girls to market. Their only other choice is a series of little men who do menial labor.

Beauty and The Beast, she is sold to pay debts, to a beast, yet there is the hope of changing him. Or, you will get used to it.

None of the stories have to do with the fine character of the man, how well he treats her, only that he is rich, and after one dance, one kiss, she is his forever.

The Little Match Girl, has three matches, and using them herself, starves, and freezes to death in an alley.

Little Red Riding Hood, was originally Silver Hair, and she goes and gets naked in bed with grandpa, she discovers what a wolf he is, and after several years has a woodsman kill him, burn him in the fire place, and she gets the house. Her word against ashes, and she paid for it. Common Law Wife of her grandfather pays. It was her mother that packed a basket for her to take to grandpa, and he was always in bed when she got there. The mother wanted the house, but Red got smart and hired a man with an axe, and mom could say nothing, or she was next.

Hansel And Gretal have parents that keep abandoning them in the woods, are very disapointed when they return, and finally they come to the Gingerbread House, where they are kept, fattened, so they kill the old woman that took them in, and fed them. They dispose of the body, burn it. Now they have the house and all the incest they want.

All of these stories have to do with being property, or how to get property. They are about the real world the children will soon face, and all that goes on there, They cover being sold, abandoned, or used as a family sex toy. Sure it is rough, but look at The Little Match Girl, she did not play the game and starved and froze to death alone.

The theme of how to dispose of a body keeps coming up. Burning the evidence seems best. Picking an old woman without family is suggested.

Before this we have stories of girls going off alone, leaving home, with all of it's joys, to tell about it, and being ripped apart by dragons. They seem to be common, and like girls. It was always blamed on dragons. Feeding dragons virgin girls was the only way to keep the peace.

In Greece it was Satyrs, and boys. It explained all those bodies of children found in the wild.

Children should know what the other choice might be.

Romeo and Juliette shows the dangers of love, and the good sense of arranged marriage. Niether family will accept them, and it leads to lots of needless death. Infatuation Kills! Yea,he is cute, but is he worth dying over?

At the core of every story is suffering, caused by desire.

So listen up litle match girl, he is not cute, he is old, but he has a bed, is warm, and you will eat.

So we dress up cold realities and feed them to children, so they look forward to the fate that awaits them. We also tell stories of what happens to those who do not play the game.

All of Jane Austin's girls married above their station, even her littlest sister who would put out on the first date. The only question was does he want me? Jane was a hold out who was bought when Darcy paid off a family scandel. He was owed, she was the price. She did her duty.

Her Pride and Prejudice met reality. She was property, and went to the highest bidder.

She did not like him, there was no affection between them, but she agreed to spend the rest of her life naked in his bed letting him do as he would. She was not romanced, she was bought as breeding stock. She was just like her friend that married the Reverand for the house, he was a dork, it was a nice house. She did not expect love, just property. He was only safe because the property was entailed to the next male heir, so she could not poison him till she had a son. She could wait a few years.

So I find a grim reality in all works, and how they are dressed up to be sold. This core is why great stories are great, because the underlieing reality is there.

Nothing much has changed, really beautiful eighteen year old girls marry men of fifty or sixty for love. Darcy seems at least twice Jane's age, as girls married at sixteen, perhaps three times. He has lived the life of a rich man in London where he had anything he wanted for twice her years, and now he has her.

My story is, so you will do anything to survive, and so are the rest. My story has girls who are sent out to pick berries where the bears pick berries, like Hansel and Gretel. They dont have the option of being sold, they have to scavenge a life from nothing, and nothing is trying to eat them.

They would not have survived without changing, they adapt, and find new food supplies, and through survival stress, produce surplus food. It is the only power in their world, so they take over. They have problems, and all morality aside, they solve them.

There is the surface world, my characters are resourceful survivors, their answers last for thousands of years, change the future, but their family did try to feed them to bears. Some were starved almost to death on purpose, and it was a normal homelife. They had no security or emotional support.

Under survival stress, they still had inner reserves, and in a world against them, they survived.

Adversity, a life worse than the reader, that goes on to great works, even if involves burning the bodies, or accepting that girlish dreams and the world do not quite match, and deals have to be made with reality.

It is the human condition told over and over, and good stories touch deeply.


edit**** quoted but totally forgot to reply XD

well yeah, thats one way to put it. With my current project, which is nowhere near finished, there is plenty of illustration of the 'horrors' of war (such as what you would call 'civilian casualties') and the horrors that can come from discrimination (such as how the majority can and usually will simply not care). It is definately a story of survival and doing what needs to be done to set the world to rights. Some of the characters will be the 'end justifys the means' type, while others are more like 'the end DOES NOT justify anything'. There are also messages about standing up for a cause you believe in. And although the series is really cynical in tone (quite like myself, since alot of it is affected by my own worldview), there are gonna be those who arent, those who are pretty much your 'annoying, bright-eyed idealists'.


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irishwhistle
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25 Apr 2010, 12:31 am

I figure as long as you don't use all the names and mix things up a bit, how would anyone know where you got it? You might have a story that looks just like You've Got Mail when in fact you were inspired by The Shop Around the Corner. As long as the main character isn't named Kralik, it's just another story in the same vein. So, yeah, it's got to come from somewhere because our entire common knowledge is pretty much already in print somewhere!

I had an idea to help me see fresh possibilities in my story... I did a sex change! 8O I changed the boy in the story to a girl and the girl to a boy. Not sure whether I'll keep them that way. I blush to report that seeing the events I have written so far from that altered perspective was enough to raise all sorts of new possibilities in the storyline. As much as society has tried to make male and female the same, we'll never really see it that way and thank goodness for that. But anyway, this change has solved some plot issues and may need to become permanent. It does no harm to other books I have sketched out in the series, so why not? I hope that if I can finish one, I'll be able to finish them all. We'll see. If I never publish, I'd at least like to have finished them.

Y'know, I'm actually hesitant about publishing. I fear failure less than success. Failure leaves you no less than you were unless you pinned all your hopes on not failing. Success could get you stalked, or worse, a movie deal from Disney.


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DemonAbyss10
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25 Apr 2010, 8:03 am

irishwhistle wrote:
I figure as long as you don't use all the names and mix things up a bit, how would anyone know where you got it? You might have a story that looks just like You've Got Mail when in fact you were inspired by The Shop Around the Corner. As long as the main character isn't named Kralik, it's just another story in the same vein. So, yeah, it's got to come from somewhere because our entire common knowledge is pretty much already in print somewhere!

I had an idea to help me see fresh possibilities in my story... I did a sex change! 8O I changed the boy in the story to a girl and the girl to a boy. Not sure whether I'll keep them that way. I blush to report that seeing the events I have written so far from that altered perspective was enough to raise all sorts of new possibilities in the storyline. As much as society has tried to make male and female the same, we'll never really see it that way and thank goodness for that. But anyway, this change has solved some plot issues and may need to become permanent. It does no harm to other books I have sketched out in the series, so why not? I hope that if I can finish one, I'll be able to finish them all. We'll see. If I never publish, I'd at least like to have finished them.

Y'know, I'm actually hesitant about publishing. I fear failure less than success. Failure leaves you no less than you were unless you pinned all your hopes on not failing. Success could get you stalked, or worse, a movie deal from Disney.


That is the thing, being 'famous' would be too much for me, and id prolly end up murdering a paparazzi, but yeah...
If mine does become successful, mine wouldn't be remotely suitable for a disney movie (if it did get made into a movie, would prefer the guy who directed District 9 to do it, which yeh district 9 was another big influence.) Now if it was made into a tv series, id love joss whedon to do it, but id settle for a good anime studio like gainax or sunrise to do it.


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25 Apr 2010, 9:04 am

One of those old Greeks said there were only seven basic characters and seven plots, so stories do recycle, and humans might be down to five characters, more likely than nine.

Even my animals fit a basic plot and character. Reality might be limited, or just my brain.

Jane Austin brings us the Novel, Edgar Allen Poe the Detective Story, Jules Verne Science Fiction, or Mary Shelly, but it all was fairly recent.

I have Jane's Problem, the personality of a half dozen girls, which is an over supply. Each of these types can be put in any story, which will change things, boys I think have less range of character.

So most writers have a limited supply. There are limits that the reader can deal with, she was a stock car racer and he was a nurse.

So we are selling to the reader, they have to want to go for the ride. While plots and characters are limited, readers are worse. We are selling a fomula that has limits. Harliquin Romances have it down, mass selling, but limited range. It is emotional and paced, they are all alike, all different, and readers have read hundreds.

Science Fiction was hot, but ran down quickly when some wrters saw it as a social change platform, or a defense of science, when what sold was an action adventure story, with a litte science.

Manga has come back as a mix of action adventure, with an emotional content, Kagomi and Innyusha, with a fairy tale quality. It is what is selling, nothing deep, easy to follow stories. It touches on other issues, but lightly. As Kagomi put it, " I have seen you without your demon power, you have seen me naked, I say we call it even."

Other Manga goes deeper, each has a market. I like Cowboy Bebop, an action adventure story with great music, artwork, Fay Valentine as the bad girl, has it all and uses it, always in trouble, deal with it, and Radical Edward, the girl child with more brains than the rest combined, who mostly relates to her laptop. Spike and Jet would rather risk their lives for money than work. Males have a limited range, but the other males they hunt are worse, and the rest in the middle are shown as broom pushing dorks.

In all of it is the range between the charcters, Fifteen year old school girl, and the son of the Dog Demon, bounty hunters, the amoral Fay, and the girl geek Edward. They will all have a different view of everything, but something draws them together, action adventure, None want the boring life.

I find I can only use a few characters at a time, I have more, but most only come forward sometimes.

Bebop has two males, a retired older cop, and a retired younger Yakusa, and two female, one getting by on brains, and one any way she can. Inyuasha has four main characters.

Readers do not seem to keep up with more, the characters are a way of viewing the story, the range.

The setting, the characters, are background, still need a good story.

The Greeks again, said that while character was limited, what made the story was the character type had a flaw. The dynamic of the story is that flaw, and how it leaves them blind or weak to what even a reader could pick up. If he would just see that she... but then we would not have a story, we would have an ending.

Spike and Fay are the same, she flys her own ship, does combat flying, lives for adventure, they are the same age group and both hot, and bounce off each other. So much the same they have a brother sister relationship. She is a realist, he is a romantic, doomed, but drawn together. They really are the same character with a sex change, and how male and female would differ in playing the same role.

As for series, I found the best feedback on book one was book two. Just as a story builds chapter at a time to a high point then ending, book two is post ending, and the lead up to it can go in book one. As a series it should be a consistant read, further adventures from a world you know. Thousands of years have gone by, but they start from the same foundation. Humans hardly change.

As for publishing, failue is in the mind of the beholder. Getting finished and in print is a step forward.

Writing is one art, getting all that out of your head, Editing for the reader is another art, making a meaty story that catches the reader quickly, holds their attention, and gives them their moneys worth.

Marketing books is a whole other problem. A publisher will only take it on if they are going to make most of the money.

Self published, Lulu Press you can get in print cheaply, but they do seem to get almost all of the money.

A non promoted book does not sell, no one ever heard of it. Being a writer is like being a band, you have to tour so people learn you exist, and nothing can replace it. Anyone can be on Amazon, have two copies in each Barnes&Noble, if you have the money, and that does not sell books.

Working your market sector sells books, and slowly. Most self published sell 200. They may be great works, but 100 read them, and they die. There is some magic number, since books and people vary, perhaps 1,000, that takes hunting down the type of reader and making them remember your name. It is a lot of work, but then the fire gets started, for they know people like themselves, same tastes in reading, and being readers have shallow empty lives with little to talk about, so they tell others what they read, and this word of mouth is what sells books.

It might take years to build a readership, some books have been around for five years before sales take off, when they reach the critical mass of readers and it spreads. You can try to jump start it, for only $35,000 you can be reviewed by The New York Times, publishers send out 5,000 copies to book reviewers and those who buy for libraries. 5,000 more will stock Barnes&Noble, and a major book launch costs $100,000.

It still takes promotion by the writer. TV shows, radio, are alway open to filler, signings at book stores, talks, conventions, schools that teach writing, Book Clubs, to build a name. We must teach the consumer product awareness.

First books are hard, but it all is still there for a second book, and few know how many sold. So from the best sell writer of book one, now comes the thrilling follow up of book two! This is the power of a name, for if you tell people you are a writer enough times, they will believe you, and will repeat the dirty rumor to others. People buy what they have heard of.

First book readers are a built in market for second books, and book stores will go for works that are offered below the usual 60%. In a special promotional package I will speak and sign, and you can get it for 40%.

For the constant and low budget, take a stack of ten, and go sit in a coffeee shop for an afternoon. You may sell enough to pay for the coffee, even a cake! You will build a name, as most who sit in coffee shops are boring losers or would call the police if you spoke to them. Tip well.

Promotion counts a lot more than great writing, That personal visit and free copy to the local paper book reviewer, is worth much more than a mailout press package from a publisher, Someone came to see ME!, I am a real member of the Lit World!

Local interest can get radio and TV guest slots, some people even listen to those things, but it all gets put on your, I Did This, list, that goes in the scrap book with all the press clippings, do get a tape, and if later you are talking to a major, it shows you get out and work the product.

No one is taking on new work even from writers they have published before, unless your name is John Grissom. Many have been turning to Lulu Press, and Kindel. Print or digital it still takes making people hear about the product.

I find Lulu expensive, the better deal is a print run of 3,000, for a quarter of the per copy price, about $2, so you can afford to give them away, and when you do sell, you make something.

Being a machine head I set up my own, and can print and bind for $2, it was expensive, fills a room, and takes me to keep it running, but it can turn out one or a hundred a day. It is a smaller scale version of Lulu, since writers starve, those who print for others might do better. Production, Promotion, and the shipping and handeling is where the big money is.

Reality is, bad books sell, lots of them, and good work is rare, and still has to overcome the same problems. I sell on ebay, listing more works, some sells, I don't know why, but my marketing set is about the same for one or a hundred, with more, I can pay someone else to keep up production, and get back to writing.

Effective web marketing is my next goal because I hate people, strangers, and places. I can exist as a Max Headroom character, I would rather write myself than be myself, and self employed, I would quit.

This does give me a potential to market the WP types who write but would not leave the house. The market is changing, the web is the future, or the only one I am willing to deal with.

A Recluse Guide to Marketing, I will work on it, but one way or another, books must get to readers.

I can speak to thousands, just not three. I rarely speak to any.

Still, it can be done, it can be fun, and not much else would work for me.

There are a lot of ways of getting out there, a full range of how much that will cost, and you have to pick what works for who you are.

I built my publishing on selling reprints of old motorcycle manuals and parts lists, the machines grew, the income paid for it, and that type of market is broad and long lasting. Something to cover the costs while trying new and possible markets. I can now bind books up to 700 pages, better than you can get at a copy shop, so I am in the broader turning paper into books line.

The way I see it selling 10,000 over five years works. Being publisher, printer, binder, writer, I then get the big shipping and handeling money. Selling five a day, it will pay. Best sellers sell 50,000 a week.

I too fear success, I would take the money, but not the life. I would come up with some story, I am 113 and live in a cave, or I am nine and my mother won't let me. Anything that sells, I will be going to a web press, and keeping production up. Digital and the web can connect the writer and reader like never before, and the money, so the future will be different.

We can only try.



b9
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25 Apr 2010, 9:32 am

Quote:
Why can't I write middles?!?!?

you successfully wrote "middles" in your topic title



irishwhistle
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27 Apr 2010, 12:49 am

b9 wrote:
Quote:
Why can't I write middles?!?!?

you successfully wrote "middles" in your topic title


You're right...

I'm CURED!! !

Hee.

I'm getting there. But I do wonder how anyone can write a book quickly. Well, a good one, anyway.


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DemonAbyss10
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27 Apr 2010, 8:53 am

irishwhistle wrote:
b9 wrote:
Quote:
Why can't I write middles?!?!?

you successfully wrote "middles" in your topic title


You're right...

I'm CURED!! !

Hee.

I'm getting there. But I do wonder how anyone can write a book quickly. Well, a good one, anyway.


Those are USUALLY smaller books, and I do believe genre influences it as well. High Fantasy can take ages, especesially since you have all that world-building to do. but yeah, I think authors may put their life on the sidelines sometimes if they crank them out extremely fast (stephen king and whats his name who wrote brother odd, im looking at you.)


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28 Apr 2010, 12:21 am

When I start a story, I usually write down character's names first, then a short synopsis of the plot, then get down to business. I refer to the top part, with all that (though I tend to get a bit 'mental', and do things like
set names to ages down by using the 'top 10 baby names' sites for their year of birth...;)
Once the story is down, I erase all the notes at the top.


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DemonAbyss10
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28 Apr 2010, 9:11 am

pakled wrote:
When I start a story, I usually write down character's names first, then a short synopsis of the plot, then get down to business. I refer to the top part, with all that (though I tend to get a bit 'mental', and do things like
set names to ages down by using the 'top 10 baby names' sites for their year of birth...;)
Once the story is down, I erase all the notes at the top.


For mine, names have more to do with ancestery than year of birth. Also for main characters anyways I wanted names that would stand out. and even one character goes by an alias instead of his real name.

As for the ordering of everything I usually go plot outline, then names, and so on and so forth.


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