The line between confidence and arrogance

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If you haven't, go watch 'Before Sunrise'. Watch Ethan Hawke's character, Jesse. He starts off veering between brashness, cynicism and puppydog sincerity, not knowing how to play it with Celine. And watch how she reacts to him, how she indulges him. It's a sweet, well written and observed movie.

It's possible to be desperate internally but externally attempt hide it. But then your motive is fear of rejection. Having a voice inside your head going "try not to be seen as desperate" might just cripple you socially. Most girls wait for a guy to show interest in them before showing any interest themselves. If you never show interest they assume you're not interested in them.

It seems like kraftiekortie never had these fears and just desperately went after everyone. I don't see how he can project his experience onto more socially cautions people. Socially cautious people really don't need to be told "don't appear desperate". All that does is breed fear and cause them not to ask anyone out.

You two are too literal. The completely natural ND courtship has an extremely low chance to work in our society, so we always need to think in terms of approximations. Flirting is not even part of the natural ND courtship, rather is something that can work as a replacement. So just think about alternatives that don't build on NT dating, and then test if they work. Make sure they are possible to do without violating too many of your preferences and avoid the pitfalls inherent in ND relationship traits like the how the attachment process works. Then report your success so others can learn.

Now...wait a second! LOL

I've had the same fears, the same self-consciousness, the same shyness.

The reason why I feel I can give advice is because I'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS STUFF. I had Aspergian symptoms. I used to monologue, the whole nine yards. I was an outcast even amongst outcast. The nerd of the nerds. No girl would touch me with a ten-foot pole up until senior year in high school. Then I got a little better at communicating with people.

I've been desperate. I've had woman state that I "look desperate" (they were trying to help me). It was obvious to these women.

I chose to change my conscious (and, by extension, my unconscious) orientation. I chose to allow girls to take a backseat to whatever other interests I have. I could then speak to girls as friends, then...who knows? That "who knows" happened a few times. Nothing permanent, though.

If I ever see somebody accuse me of being a PUA or something, I will rap that person but good!! !!

Yes, there were times when I sort of "settled." But I didn't really "settle" too badly when I "settled."

When I asked a girl out on my first date, I couldn't bring myself to directly say, "How about seeing this movie on Saturday." I had to go through the rigamarole: "You know...there's this movie playing at such and such a theatre...it's about blah blah blah...." I was absolutely stuttering, making an ass of myself, etc. She said yes, we had a little fling a year later. Ultimately, however, she fell for someone else.

I was an absolute nerd/geek, etc. in high school---without the smarts, though. Like Marty McFly's father. And I couldn't even write science fiction like Marty McFly's father. I had a similar bully to Biff.

In my 20's, I would get occasional flings when I would be inspired on the subway. And they were lonely girls/women. We'd just talk a little. Then I'd take them to my apartment. None of this lasted long. Luckily, I didn't get anybody pregnant or pick up any diseases.

I once dared to write poems to girls on the subway. It went along fairly well--until it was time to ask someone out. Flat out rejection! And she was really a smart, smart, poetic girl. And she wore a nice hat, too. And I was rejected (she was nice about it, though).

I once asked a girl why she couldn't bring herself to love me. She said, "I don't know. It's just chemistry, I suppose." It's an answer I had to accept---otherwise, I would have went absolutely bonkers.

And don't forget: I'm about 164 cm tall, or about 5 foot 4.75. Been this height since age 17, or perhaps before then.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 15 Aug 2016, 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm sure you can, and most of the time, your advice is sound.



I've found out the function of monologue. In the relationship context, where it belongs.



That's smart. I'd do something similar. Typical hinting.

I guess, to a certain extent, I've been lucky.

But sometimes one has to "make one's own luck."

well... yes. i mean, yes. like... yes . that's exactly what i do. me, particularly, i form relationships by talking about relationships. i like how it serves several purposes at once, and it fits my intellectual interests. it's something that works for me and that i don't intend to change. it just doesn't solve the problem of the odds of compatibility, which is what i've been trying to find ways to improve

that's why i'm confused. what is it that you're talking about when you talk about "nd flirting"?

Obsessing, games, hints, observation, monologue.



There is just one sane way to do that, and it involves developing a nonverbal ND radar. You do it with eye contact or by detecting stims and similar. Talking about traits to figure it out that way really isn't very helpful.

Last edited by rdos on 15 Aug 2016, 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If there's one think I hate doing....and I'm really klutzy about it anyway.....is talking about "relationships."

If a woman says, "we have to talk, " I say "Oh no!" I can't handle that sort of talk.

I don't know what you think the 'completely natural ND courtship' is. Cards on the table - I don't think there is one, outside of whatever works best for the particular neurodiverse individual.

I have had success with attracting women, and in forming connections with them. I'm kind of s**t at relationships, though that's because it took the actual experience to see what I am capable of and interested in, and what I am not capable of and not interested in.

At least one of these women has been neurodiverse, though neither of us had any such idea, or any awareness of the word or possibility at the time. Our courtship involved me visiting her at her (rather, her parents') house because she was agoraphobic at the time, and has long running social anxiety problems. We'd talk about philosophy and music, and share films, and weren't at all concerned about each others' weirdnesses. And there was sex - I lost my virginity to her. And we connected, and moved in, and got married.

Now, I don't know how closely this fits your theory of a 'completely natural ND courtship', but it worked very well for us. The courtship was fine. The relationship, making it work, has been much harder.

well, yeah

that's rather nonspecific though. which to me is the very point. it only makes sense if it makes sense individually

i can't remember anymore any specific post, but i remember i've seen you posting several times some kind of description of "the way how nd flirting works". that's paradoxical, and that's what's confusing to me about your perspective and what you are trying to convey. to me it only makes sense to talk about how it doesn't usually work

oh but that's the key point there. i'm not talking "talking about the relationship". i'm talking "talking about relationships". then the one in question (if it happens to be in question) just happens to be in question. one among trillions of human relationships that could be talked about

I did a new thread about it, but it didn't attract a lot of interest. I suggest you find it and take the discussion there. However, I won't present the complete process just yet.



If you have problems with relationship stability, the most likely cause is that you didn't connect / attach properly during courtship. This is one of the main purposes of ND courtship, and if you skip that, chances are you will fail with LTRs.

To be honest, my conception of relationships really isn't all that deep/profound.

I believe being in a smooth relationship involves, basically:

1. Sharing common interests

2. Sharing a similar life-philosophy

3. Having a physical attraction to each other

4. Taking care of each other's sexual needs (though not by talking about it, usually....by directing someone's hand to a certain "G-spot" or whatever.

5. Being able to compromise (I'm screwing up in this right now, which is why it's possible that my relationship will collapse pretty soon).

6. Allowing each other space, allowing each other to have friends, even, of the same gender.

7. Having confidence in each other's ability to be "faithful"--without forcing that someone to be around you 24-7.

Perhaps a few other things might come to mind later. But my idea of relationships is really "too" simple for me to be a "relationship expert."

Those are common ND traits. You obsess about a crush to create a strong connection (and avoid doing that when there are no mutual feelings). Games, hints and monologue all can be used during the observation phase, which can take many forms like pure nonverbal observation with eye contact only, hanging out or even using social media like Facebook where monologues are natural through status updates.



It uses the ND trait to look more at people they like and works best as a detector when you are not in a conversation. It both provides you with a good ND radar, and the ability to detect interest in NDs. It uses quick glances that you "calibrate" against NTs so you don't come out as creepy with them (they shouldn't perceive that you are staring at them, but you want to make it as long as possible to get just under their threshold of staring).

it might be common, i don't know. but it's not how it works for me, it never was, and to be honest i think that, even if it works for some, it's generally unwise for most. with my ex, in particular, i alternated between being in love with her and not being in love with her many times throughout the relationship, and despite being specifically interested in her as a friend in a sort of unique and exclusive way from the beginning, i never had a crush on her until after it was stated that there was actually some sort of exclusive relationship going on. i had a crush on this woman instead, and i was still brokenhearted from my previous attempt at a relationship, while my ex had very intense crushes on other girls herself that kept resurfacing repeatedly. all of this was an integral part of how the actual relationship came to be


i don't see anything particularly nd about all that


okay, so... you're talking about face-to-face interaction with semi-strangers?

Last edited by anagram on 15 Aug 2016, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.