23 May 2014, 9:36 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
:salut:
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If I ever figure out how to get my picture up here, telling me that I look good is fine...just so long as you don't add 'for your age."
OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:37 pm
starvingartist wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Many ASD men have problems getting dates and entering relationships because society deems men to be the "initiators" and a lot of ASD men fail at non-verbal communication, lack of eye contact, no sense of social timing, and usually have low social self-esteem. This leads to resentment. They come on here and complain about women because of frustration, not because they hate women, view them as only sexual objects, or because they're bad men, but because they need to vent.
Many ASD women, on the other hand, don't have near the hurdles to overcome in getting a date since they aren't expected to be the "initiators". From that point though their autism becomes an issue since they may have problems understanding the intentions of their suitors. This leads to a lot of ASD women getting used and abused by not so stalwart men. They come on here and complain about men hating women and men being nothing but pick up artists interested only in sex and objectifying women. They're just like the men here, they're frustrated about their own lack of success in the relationship game-- they don't necessarily hate men, or view them all as misogynists, nor are they bad women, they just need to vent as well.
We're all more alike then we are different...so can't we all just sing kumbaya and get along?
Many ASD women, on the other hand, don't have near the hurdles to overcome in getting a date since they aren't expected to be the "initiators". From that point though their autism becomes an issue since they may have problems understanding the intentions of their suitors. This leads to a lot of ASD women getting used and abused by not so stalwart men. They come on here and complain about men hating women and men being nothing but pick up artists interested only in sex and objectifying women. They're just like the men here, they're frustrated about their own lack of success in the relationship game-- they don't necessarily hate men, or view them all as misogynists, nor are they bad women, they just need to vent as well.
We're all more alike then we are different...so can't we all just sing kumbaya and get along?
please don't go there, seriously--that has been rehashed again and again and you guys refuse to listen no matter how many women on this forum tell you it is not easy for us to get a date just because we have a vagina. i am extremely limited in my socialisation, so i rarely if ever meet new people. how am i supposed to get asked out on a date if i never am around guys who might consider asking me out? being paralysed with social anxiety makes putting oneself out there in the first place practically impossible, and if you don't put yourself out there you don't get asked, whether you're male or female. i haven't been asked out in 10 years. how have i had an easier time than you just because i'm a woman?
And we get to the crux of the whole thing now.
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23 May 2014, 9:42 pm
OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:42 pm
tarantella64 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't know what you're driving at. How would complimenting acquaintances lead to a sexual-harassment lawsuit? As I stated before, I don't randomly go up to women to offer compliments.
Women go to work to do jobs and get paid, not to serve as ogling fodder. In most large companies, at this point, HR will put you through anti-sexual-harassment training so that you know how not to leave other people feeling like they're working with creepsters. Unless that co-worker is a very good friend, you're looking for trouble if you start remarking on his or her appearance. The take-home is "if you don't know where the line is, keep the remark to yourself."
Suppose I were to go to work and tell a faculty member, "Have you lost weight? It looks like you've been working out." This isn't a compliment, because the subtext is, "I am staring at your body and gauging your sexual attractiveness, rather than attending to the business at hand." And that's not welcome. If I were to say to a student employee, "Gosh, what a becoming outfit on you," the subtext is the same, only it's even less comfortable for the student, because I have power over him or her. Even worse if it's not just a student employee, but a student in my class who's receiving a grade from me. And you had better believe I am aware of these things. If a student comes in wearing something unintentionally revealing, I might, as a mother, think, "Dear, cover up," but I'm sure as hell not going to say a word about it to the student, because that means I've noticed, and am making the student aware that I'm looking at her body. Which would make things very awkward indeed for the student.
And do you know what? It's a good thing. It's horrible to go to work and be subject to all these guys "complimenting" you, leering away. I can't stop them thinking it, but I can certainly stop them intruding on my mental space with it. The same laws make it quite difficult now for gangs of guys to get together at work and start rating women sexually and generally degrading them before going back into the office to work with the very same women. Is there still sexual harassment, yes, but it ain't like the old days.
Oh: more specifically, it's against US labor law to create a "hostile workplace environment", which includes environments in which one can expect sexual harassment, such as unwelcome remarks about one's appearance, body, etc.
Honestly, most people are pleased by something like that. Most people are not that defensive and that cynical that they immediately suspect some horrible ulterior motive when someone else says something freakin' nice to them!
If people didn't care how they looked, they wouldn't bother to do anything to themselves except put on clothes. It's nice to be told you look nice. (Now I'm thinking of Frank Burns saying "It's nice to be nice to the nice")
ALSO!! The reason I have so many posts in a row is because I've responded to the ones I wanted to while reading the thread. I do not know how to condense all the quotes into one post. If a mod wants to do that for me, I'd appreciate it, but I'm clueless as to how to do it. If you know how to, please send me a PM with instructions.
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OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:48 pm
starvingartist wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
:salut:
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
when you get random strangers telling you "nice tits" as you walk down the street every day to school or work, then come back here and tell women they should be "nicer" when men "compliment" them because they mean it in a nice way. it doesn't matter if you don't see it. what matters is most women telling you they don't like it and you not listening because you feel entitled to comment on someone else's body to them and expect to be thanked for it.
"Nice tits" is not a compliment. That's jackassery. There is an answer to that statement too. It's "Yeah, they are. Too bad you'll never touch them, needledick! Now go back in the bathroom with your 'Barely Legal"!"
so now you're going to tell me how i'm supposed to deal with the sexual harassment i encounter when i go out--this is rich. who the f**k are you to tell me i should feel safe enough to speak back to men in public when i am alone? and how do you know how many times i have spoken back in such circumstances only to be threatened physically? how do you know how many times i've been followed home at night by strange men, and how i dealt with that? just who the f**k do you think you are?????
I think I'm somebody who knows how to handle that s**t, that's who I think I am. They threaten you, hit 911 and tell the cops. They follow you, call 911. I'd also suggest that if your area is so crawling with wannabe sexual predators and assailants that you really should arm yourself. If it's that bad where you live (and this is a serious suggestion) then you should be able to get a carry permit easily. You can also get something that will fit in your purse and most gun shops and police departments offer courses in gun safety and shooting. You can practice at the local range. If you'd rather carry something less lethal, then pepper spray or mace are good ideas. They do make some that fit on your key chain. If you can't get any of those where you are, a lesser known thing that will work is a can of Pam, yes, the cooking spray. Spray that right in his eyes. It will burn and also stick to the eyes so he will have trouble getting it to stop burning. If you want, you can take the little spray thingy off and dip it in water with some cayenne pepper in it and put it back on. Give it a short spray to unclog it and viola! Instant pepper spray for just a couple sprays.
If you don't think I've been in those, and worse situations in my life, you're wrong. I'm speaking from experience is what I'm doing. It made me feel much, much more empowered when I handled things like that myself and stood up for myself than it did when I expected somebody else to fix it for me.
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OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:49 pm
tarantella64 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
:salut:
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
when you get random strangers telling you "nice tits" as you walk down the street every day to school or work, then come back here and tell women they should be "nicer" when men "compliment" them because they mean it in a nice way. it doesn't matter if you don't see it. what matters is most women telling you they don't like it and you not listening because you feel entitled to comment on someone else's body to them and expect to be thanked for it.
"Nice tits" is not a compliment. That's jackassery. There is an answer to that statement too. It's "Yeah, they are. Too bad you'll never touch them, needledick! Now go back in the bathroom with your 'Barely Legal"!"
Try living in an environment where you never, ever have to put up with this kind of sh**, or bother fighting with it, and I bet you won't go back.
Not if you cut out actual compliments. And probably manners like opening doors and holding coats and such. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I also don't see anybody on WP going up to people and going "nice tits"
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OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:50 pm
starvingartist wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
There's alot of misunderstanding about what objectification is.
You're hair looks nice like that, seems like a nice thing to say or maybe I like your dress, you look lovely.
What a great deal of women find offensive is a stranger walking past and nudging his mate and saying, nice tits eh? Or I'd shag that.
You're hair looks nice like that, seems like a nice thing to say or maybe I like your dress, you look lovely.
What a great deal of women find offensive is a stranger walking past and nudging his mate and saying, nice tits eh? Or I'd shag that.
it's not just that--it's the constant reinforcement everywhere you go that, as a woman, your worth is measured by how physically attractive you are to males, and who you are as a person is irrelevant compared to that. and you are reminded of that every time some strange man feels the need to tell you he finds you physically attractive like you're supposed to be grateful for that, because some random person thinks you're f**k-worthy. it's absurd.
Sounds like a personal problem to me, and not the problem of the entire female sex. I'm not at all pretty and I don't mind a compliment, or when other people get compliments. You, on the other hand, are pretty, if that's you in your avatar. Uh oh, I'm gonna be objectifying now or something.
Don't project all your problems off onto the rest of us just because a few people feel like you do. I hate sexists just as much as you do. I just happen to deal with them directly rather than run to somebody else to do something about it.
when my father tried to hit me the first time, i never back down from him, and i have yet to back down from a man since--that doesn't mean i think i should have to spend the rest of my life not backing down from men who threaten me because they can't help themselves or whatever BS excuse you're going to offer up next. stop trying to call my a coward sideways, you don't know me or my history.
(edit* the first time my father tried to hit me was also the last time, because i promised him if he ever laid his hands on me again i would kill him--and i meant it. he believed me.)
It's already illegal for them to do stuff like that. Also, that's not happening on the forum. Where did this come from?
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23 May 2014, 9:50 pm
OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:51 pm
vickygleitz wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
:salut:
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If I ever figure out how to get my picture up here, telling me that I look good is fine...just so long as you don't add 'for your age."
At my age, I'd be happy even for that lol!
I just turned 50! Yet I'm still having zits! Clearisil doesn't make a wrinkle cream, although that would be a million dollar idea for menopausal women!
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My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA.
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OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:51 pm
tarantella64 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Many ASD men have problems getting dates and entering relationships because society deems men to be the "initiators" and a lot of ASD men fail at non-verbal communication, lack of eye contact, no sense of social timing, and usually have low social self-esteem. This leads to resentment. They come on here and complain about women because of frustration, not because they hate women, view them as only sexual objects, or because they're bad men, but because they need to vent.
Many ASD women, on the other hand, don't have near the hurdles to overcome in getting a date since they aren't expected to be the "initiators". From that point though their autism becomes an issue since they may have problems understanding the intentions of their suitors. This leads to a lot of ASD women getting used and abused by not so stalwart men. They come on here and complain about men hating women and men being nothing but pick up artists interested only in sex and objectifying women. They're just like the men here, they're frustrated about their own lack of success in the relationship game-- they don't necessarily hate men, or view them all as misogynists, nor are they bad women, they just need to vent as well.
We're all more alike then we are different...so can't we all just sing kumbaya and get along?
Many ASD women, on the other hand, don't have near the hurdles to overcome in getting a date since they aren't expected to be the "initiators". From that point though their autism becomes an issue since they may have problems understanding the intentions of their suitors. This leads to a lot of ASD women getting used and abused by not so stalwart men. They come on here and complain about men hating women and men being nothing but pick up artists interested only in sex and objectifying women. They're just like the men here, they're frustrated about their own lack of success in the relationship game-- they don't necessarily hate men, or view them all as misogynists, nor are they bad women, they just need to vent as well.
We're all more alike then we are different...so can't we all just sing kumbaya and get along?
please don't go there, seriously--that has been rehashed again and again and you guys refuse to listen no matter how many women on this forum tell you it is not easy for us to get a date just because we have a vagina. i am extremely limited in my socialisation, so i rarely if ever meet new people. how am i supposed to get asked out on a date if i never am around guys who might consider asking me out? being paralysed with social anxiety makes putting oneself out there in the first place practically impossible, and if you don't put yourself out there you don't get asked, whether you're male or female. i haven't been asked out in 10 years. how have i had an easier time than you just because i'm a woman?
And we get to the crux of the whole thing now.
uh, not for me. And not for plenty of other women, either.
I meant for her.
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23 May 2014, 9:52 pm
OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:53 pm
starvingartist wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
So, is all this about some guy saying "Nice tits" and you not saying something back? Is this your way of making yourself feel better about not answering?
If we have comments moderated for sexism, then we need a panel of women to define the parameters for that before it becomes "If a female complains, remove it".
If we have comments moderated for sexism, then we need a panel of women to define the parameters for that before it becomes "If a female complains, remove it".
oliveoilmom, this makes me more angry than anything any of the men have said to me since i posted that thread yesterday. how dare you try to shame me for dealing with sexual harassment and threats directed at me however i feel i need to get out of a situation alive? how dare you?
My intent was never to shame. You're the one who brought that up. Don't try and put intent where it's not. It's just rather telling though that you said that, in light of my statement.
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OliveOilMom
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23 May 2014, 9:55 pm
starvingartist wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
:salut:
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
If a specific woman desires that I don't compliment her on her beauty, because it "objectifies" her, then I won't do it. I don't see anything unnatural in that. I don't see how it's indicative of the "Patriarchy."
It would be swell, however, if the request is made in a nice, reasonable way, especially since my intention was not negative, and not meant to demean her, or to belittle her, in any way. What's fair is fair.
when you get random strangers telling you "nice tits" as you walk down the street every day to school or work, then come back here and tell women they should be "nicer" when men "compliment" them because they mean it in a nice way. it doesn't matter if you don't see it. what matters is most women telling you they don't like it and you not listening because you feel entitled to comment on someone else's body to them and expect to be thanked for it.
"Nice tits" is not a compliment. That's jackassery. There is an answer to that statement too. It's "Yeah, they are. Too bad you'll never touch them, needledick! Now go back in the bathroom with your 'Barely Legal"!"
so now you're going to tell me how i'm supposed to deal with the sexual harassment i encounter when i go out--this is rich. who the f**k are you to tell me i should feel safe enough to speak back to men in public when i am alone? and how do you know how many times i have spoken back in such circumstances only to be threatened physically? how do you know how many times i've been followed home at night by strange men, and how i dealt with that? just who the f**k do you think you are?????
I think I'm somebody who knows how to handle that sh**, that's who I think I am. They threaten you, hit 911 and tell the cops. They follow you, call 911. I'd also suggest that if your area is so crawling with wannabe sexual predators and assailants that you really should arm yourself. If it's that bad where you live (and this is a serious suggestion) then you should be able to get a carry permit easily. You can also get something that will fit in your purse and most gun shops and police departments offer courses in gun safety and shooting. You can practice at the local range. If you'd rather carry something less lethal, then pepper spray or mace are good ideas. They do make some that fit on your key chain. If you can't get any of those where you are, a lesser known thing that will work is a can of Pam, yes, the cooking spray. Spray that right in his eyes. It will burn and also stick to the eyes so he will have trouble getting it to stop burning. If you want, you can take the little spray thingy off and dip it in water with some cayenne pepper in it and put it back on. Give it a short spray to unclog it and viola! Instant pepper spray for just a couple sprays.
If you don't think I've been in those, and worse situations in my life, you're wrong. I'm speaking from experience is what I'm doing. It made me feel much, much more empowered when I handled things like that myself and stood up for myself than it did when I expected somebody else to fix it for me.
i don't have a cellphone, and you know what, f**k you. just f**k you.
Whatever. I offered a real world suggestion that would help you, and it wasn't what you wanted so you got mad. It's ok. I'm sure you'll run to the mods and have this removed, or you'll get somebody else to. Then guess what? You won't have to read it!
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My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA.
The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com
23 May 2014, 10:14 pm
23 May 2014, 10:14 pm
23 May 2014, 10:53 pm
