The line between confidence and arrogance

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I'll have a look at that soon.



Nope. I admire your confidence, but nope. I'm not comfortable revealing just how it all played out but, believe me, rdos' Patented Neurodiverse Courtship Rituals couldn't have solved our issues and saved our relationship. It is not for me to talk about the issues Mrs Hopper brought to the relationship, but for myself an unease with emotion (giving and receiving, experiencing and observing) and a tendency to spend a lot of the time not particularly wanting a relationship were just a few of the things I brought to the mess.

As it is, we've sort of found our groove. With enough time not in each others' way, we can do a pretty good friendship (though I'm also a lousy friend far too often). We still share a lot of perspectives and tastes (though some very strongly clash), and she's wicked smart so we can have really great conversations. But to try anything more just leads to disaster.

It's generally thought to be unwise, but then every ND trait is generally thought to be unwise. The thing is if you cannot attach with sex (or in other "NT" ways), then obsessing is the ONLY other effective method to create a strong attachment, so it is an essential part that should be done early on. You really cannot do it any longer when you know each others too well.



That's too late. In the normal process, you get the crush before knowing each others well and then obsess. After that, you have a strong emotional bond, and will not "fall in and out of love". Getting a crush this late means you won't (even cannot) obsess. It's similar to a friendship turned into a relationship.



They are not official autistic traits, but nonetheless, these are ND relationship traits, and they work naturally between NDs. Think of it as closely related to liking science fiction and role playing.



Something like that, yes.

Last edited by rdos on 15 Aug 2016, 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry to say it, but "not particularly wanting a relationship" is too well known to me. For me, it means I just jumped into something, and it simply doesn't work in the long run. Doesn't work for daughter either. We never get connected that way.

Yeah...I feel the pangs of Obligation within my relationship. And it's not a happy feeling.

note: i added more personal details to my previous post after you quoted it

i'm not talking about what is generally thought. i'm talking about what i think is generally the case


maybe, though i don't think that's always the case, just an extra complication. either way, being friends doesn't necessarily imply "knowing each other too well". and obsession doesn't have to be a crush. and i wouldn't use the word "obsession" either. i'd say "single-mindedness" instead. there's a difference


i don't see anything particularly nd about that. as in, particular to it to the exclusion of other groups


okay, so now it's clear what we're talking about. and what we're talking about is simply no use to me at all

there's no point in trying to bond with strangers through the weak link of my personality. i'm systematic about learning how to read people, even when (or especially when) they don't fit common patterns. but people have other things to do (even if they don't fit common patterns and are also concerned with understanding the nature of relationships). they don't have the same preoccupations as i do. they don't have any blueprint available to interpret me. all i can convey through superficial interaction is "i like you so far" and "you don't know me". and even the "i like you so far" part is tricky, because irl i do everything i can to avoid confrontation. it's instinctive. some people interpret it as me liking them, when it's not the case

I don't think so. I mean obsessively thinking about her almost all of the time. I cannot think of that as only single-mindedness. Still, the crush is separate from the obsession, and usually comes first and is triggering the obsession.

I don't, and we probably have been married for about the same time (24 years here).

oh! so that was actually in response to me. i did find it odd that you seemed to be ignoring my question

for anyone else who might be interested:
http://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=326322

i set up email notifications by default for all threads i respond to, but i only look for new threads (through the "view posts since last visit" feature) when i'm bored and there's no new response to threads i've already responded to. so i never saw that one until now

i say single-mindedness because my obsessions are fickle. they're often very intense, but they come and go without warning, typically overnight. (literally overnight, which i think is one of the reasons why i usually have trouble going to sleep. each new day feels like figuring out life and existence all over again. going to sleep makes me anxious). i see most people here have a sense of loneliness and frustration, but only few people seem to have this kind of pervasive disconnection that i'm talking about. the impermanence of being. subjectively speaking, it really divides humanity into "those who have experienced it themselves" and "those who haven't". with "those who haven't" seeming like two-dimensional characters on tv, even if i'm fully aware that they're not

i like how these lyrics illustrate it, looking wistfully at the whole thing:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/grimes/realiti.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRHIMjfmMm0

or, more intense and poetically, trying to maintain a relationship:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bjork/hyperballad.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzDrMUDGsZM

(i think it's worth noting that those are women i'm highly attracted to. if i knew them personally, i would definitely be interested in them. it doesn't even matter in what capacity. i'd just want to be close to them)

for instance, i've been obsessed with another forum site in the past. i posted there for years, and it was my main "social circle", just like this one is right now. from time to time, i think to myself "maybe i should take a break". i don't. but then from to time, seemingly out of nowhere (even from my own point of view), i just stop posting, and i disappear for months. for no particular reason. this is far from being the exception when it comes to my behavior, both long- and short-term. it's consistently the rule. it's something i can count on. i don't know when or how it will happen, but i know it will. and it happens just the same way with people (or work or anything that demands sustained focus/interest). this is why autism barely registers to me personally as an issue when it comes to forming relationships. establishing an initial connection is easy. but maintaining it is very hard

adhd is something i can't control. it's by far my main issue. learning new skills can help me deal with it (mostly by accepting that it's not up to me), but it does nothing at all to prevent this shifting of emotional priorities from happening. it's very difficult (if not impossible) for someone without adhd to understand this (or to be understanding). and i'm very sensitive to rejection myself, so i can understand that, and i can't blame them for their lack of understanding. it's not my fault, but it's not their fault either, and they shouldn't be subjected to recurring rejection. not many people can deal with it in a sustainable way. and if i need to find anyone, it's those (mythical?) people who can. how to find them, is "the million-dollar question"

even with other people who do have adhd (or this particular brand of adhd), it's complicated. because while on one hand they can relate, and they connect with me because they feel so hopelessly disconnected from everybody else the same way as i do (which sometimes makes for a very intense bond, as was the case with my ex), they do suddenly lose interest in me from time to time as well. just like i do lose interest in them. or else i can't live my life. i can only have one priority at a time. but at least it's much more likely that they'll expect it and won't take it personally (and vice-versa) even if they or i do feel rejected. which is a start

so i can't let myself be at the mercy of my feelings and obsessions. it's a recipe for disaster if i do. my feelings are just as volatile as they are real and intense. it's part of why i'm so committed, devoted and persistent when i do believe in something. single-minded. because it's either a consistent effort of self-discipline, or it's just aimless nothingness

more concise lyrics:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/mastodon/thesparrow.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8RvJ8N_MS8

and this is why i say that my ex "didn't seem to understand the difference between being fond of me and being in a relationship with me". she maintained that we were in a relationship, and she did make it known that she felt rejected when i paid less attention to her for whatever reason. but she rarely acknowledged my own feelings of rejection when she did the same, and she even pushed the limits each time and demanded my support instead. "testing waters" ("do you find this pleasant? are you comfortable with this compromise?") is a good and necessary thing. it's really the smart thing to do in almost any situation involving novelty and uncertainty. but pushing boundaries just to "test people" ("are you willing to endure completely unnecessary stress just to prove how much you care?") is simply no good

kraftiekortie

I didn't mean to say you are a PUA or just went up and talked to women constantly with the objective of having sex. It just sounds like you were able to try a lot more than most AS people here dating in this day and age. It seems most people do internet dating and that's pretty much it. Also, these days young people seem much more reserved than older people. They have their heads stuck on their phones and get annoyed if anyone tries to talk with them. Pretty much their entire social life is on facebook. It's really bad. Just finding friends is extremely HARD. Everywhere with young people I notice this lax aloof attitude and indifference towards strangers, no attempts to be friendly, nothing. It is hard to put yourself out and be friendly when everyone around seems so unfriendly. You have to break out of that somehow and it's damn not easy.

So anyways, I think the problem is dating age AS people these days spend most of their time alone on the internet. I'm no exception. I don't see how you can worry about appearing "desperate" if you barely even talk to people. It just seems like a really negatively loaded term. I don't see how it's useful. It just seems like it shames males who are lonely and stuck in the house and makes them even less likely to actually go out and try to meet people. I just think back when you were younger you went out and tried to connect with people. These days people don't try as much. Even NTs don't try as much. It's so easy to spend most of your non-working life on the internet. It's more comfortable. I think if you warn lonely people who spend all their time on the internet not to be "desperate", it's just going to make them more afraid to go out. It's like loneliness is some kind of crime, despite the fact there are a ton of lonely people.

Another thing, the person I eventually met and am planning to marry came across as very desperate. I was afraid of hurting her if things weren't going to work out for some reason, but I never felt this sense of revulsion or disgust average women apparently feel towards "desperate" men. Maybe it just has to do with appearing desperate for sex. Approaching a women as a friend will dispel this. You don't have to swallow your loneliness and hide it away, pretend you're the life of the party, pretend you're busy with all kinds of activities, etc... I think a lot of AS people don't have a lot of hobbies with other people because they have a really narrow range of activities that actually make them happy and they don't want to make themselves do things they don't actually enjoy. I know this is the case for me. This world is difficult.

It's true: there was no online dating when I was "most active."

I only answered one newspaper ad--back in 1984. It had kind of a funny result.

I hope I never deter anybody from trying to talk to ladies. I feel, even for friendship, that it's good to speak to members of the "opposite sex"--about subjects other than sex. About common concerns. About even mundane things like gardening or decorating the home or something.

Like you say, people should talk to one another more, instead of hiding behind the computer. People are usually more reasonable in "real life" than on computer forums. The computer forum affords people anonymity--which causes them to be more extreme in their behavior. It's just better, in general, to speak with people in "real life."

When one is "out of practice" with interacting with people--especially if one has a communication disorder, one is often left in the lurch whenever an opportunity for enhanced interaction occurs.

Nowadays computers are portable and people hide behind them while they're in public.

This sort of thing really started with Walkmen circa 1980. People used to hide behind them.

Before then, if a woman didn't want to be bothered, she had to either have some sort of "turn-off" face, or wear sunglasses.

In gyms, some put earphones despite the music played there is already as loud as f.

I can relate to some of that. When I'm not in a depressed state I tend to have a single intense focus in my life. I have trouble juggling a bunch of different demands at once, mostly due to a lack of emotional investment in any particular thing. I don't necessarily change interests altogether though. It's more like a cycle through them. I'm interested in one thing for a while, then I get bored with it and have to move on to something else, but later I might come back to reignite an old interest. My problem is I get bored easily and it's extremely distressing. Not many people can relate to this. Most people think of boredom in terms that are too mild to describe the pain I can feel from it. When I don't have any focus I get pretty depressed and irritable. I get anhedonic and just find going through the motions of life hard.

I've never really known if this will apply to relationships. While I'm very affectionate, I'm also asexual and don't have the really intense feelings towards people the way you describe. I actually get kind of jealous that I don't. I always feel like there should be more.

I don't know if the "singular focus" thing is truly ADHD or something else. It doesn't seem to be a universal aspect of autism though. We might not even be talking about the exact same thing. I have an online friend who has BPD and she describes having intense feelings for her boyfriend with sudden intermittent periods of feeling nothing or even irritation. She says there is not always a trigger for it. According to pop-psychology there is fear of abandonment causing this distance, but she often describes it as just happening for no reason. The fear of abandonment is more associated with the "on" phase where she is extremely needy. I don't think that kind of thing applies to things other than relationships though, at least not for her.

Anyways, this is off topic. Maybe I should have started another thread. I don't know.

i think that having this emotional intensity only makes this sense of "there should be more" all the more complicated to deal with. it makes me angry when i'm forced to do something boring or something i believe is wrong (which includes almost any form of employment available). reality forces me to convince myself that what matters to me doesn't actually matter. in the end i lose track of it and i can't tell the difference anymore, and it's like everything is just white noise


i think we are. though it's interesting that you don't have the emotional intensity aspect of it


i'm pretty sure my ex has bpd (which is one of the reasons why it's hard to tell if she has asd or not. but i do believe she does, for many reasons, including genetics). maybe what i'm talking about is universal for bpd, maybe not (there's a high correlation between bpd and adhd). but i wouldn't say it's specific to it (what's more specific to bpd is the combination of a never-ending sequence of very intense emotional fluctuations with an inability to tell emotion from reality). i do have a personality disorder myself (i'm diagnosed with schizoid/schizotypal pd), but i'm sure i don't have bpd

maybe it's depersonalization disorder? i don't know. although i've also seen people with depersonalization disorder talking about having a normal life up to a point when things changed, which i can't relate to. in the end i say "adhd" because it's the only nameable thing i've noticed i tend to have in common with people i identify with, both irl and online. "adhd with depersonalization disorder", maybe? i can definitely see it as a "subtype" rather than as a "comorbidity". although it's hard to tell if the dissociative thing is more "nature" or more of an offshoot of adhd due to [lack of] "nurture" (would i have ever developed healthy/stable attachments if i had had more attentive parents? i don't know)


there's that. so i guess it's not even universal to bpd if we're not talking about relationships only


it is off-topic (although it's still marginally related, in the sense of explaining why "confidence" is barely even relevant to me, which may also be the case for others. there's no point in spending huge amounts of effort figuring out how to initiate relationships you can't maintain or even benefit from. and, in my opinion, simply knowing what you actually can maintain or benefit from already makes the initial approach a natural thing). but i guess it's hard to decide what would be the exact topic of a new thread expanding on this. responding like this is okay, but it gives me a headache if i really try to define it, or especially, if i try to define what is the purpose of bringing it up