Was I in LJBF zone with this girl?

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I understand it is horrible, but you have to also understand how much I would be hurting if I didn't do that. Back in 2005 I met another graduate student, Anne. I happened to be in a long distance relationship with Megan while I met her. Few months later it turned out that Megan was still with her so-called "horrible ex" and this long distance thing was a fake, which is why she probably avoided meeting me, but I didn't know that. Anne rejected me on the basis that "your mom sounds like she shelters you and it seems like your ex girlfriend did the same". This became my obsession for next few years. As far as Megan goes, I forgot that she even existed. Now, notice: I didn't know Megan was cheating until 2-3 months later, so it is irrelevent. I thought I was WITH Megan, and I no longer cared. I was miserable because of Anne's rejection. So, staying with Shawna and not going with Jennifer would ammount to the same kind of misery.

Now, after Anne I had three more girls: Anita, Erin and Jennifer. None of them made me stop thinking about Anne. Why? Because Anne was graduate student. Well, Jennifer was too, but Anne was in math and Jennifer in biology. Since I am in physics to me someone who konws mathematics matters much more than biology. So do you see how I was regretting for four years (2005-2009) that none of these girls ever made up for that? Well, if I were to stay with Shawna and not go with Jennifer I might have similar regret taht lasts for several years that I had an apportunity to get Anne's replacement (which is Jennifer since she is also a graduate student) and I didn't.

So normally I am not that selfish. I only act that way when it comes to my facing this kind of dramma.

Anyway, I don't think this quote is relevent to anything because Shawna is not a mind reader. The only reason I mentioned this is to correct others that said I gave up on Shawna because of LJBF. Yes there were other girls on whom I gave up due to LJBF but Shawna was not one of them (even if I did give up on her in my mind, it didn't show in my actions, so again Shawna is not a mind reader).

So, lets not get disracted by other things and focus on what Shawna knows. And it is this:

a) There was no commitment yet

b) When there is no commitment it is very typical to talk to several people at the same time

c) Up until Jennifer came along I never indicated one way or the other if I was talking to others or not, simply because she haven't asked.

d) She was telling me she "doesn't want to lose me as a friend"

e) Before Jennifer came along she wanted to be my friend. Then there is a dispute b etween two interpretations:

(i) She rejected me from the start and still wanted to be my friend

(ii) She considered me as possible partner, but was willing to remain friend IF things won't work out

So we are split on whether it is (i) or (ii). But either of the two would imply the willingness to be a friend IF things won't work out

f) After she found out about Jennifer, she no longer wanted to talk to me

Now, here is a dillema:

1) The fact that f had happened DESPITE a and b implies that either she actually WAS interested at that point (my interpretation) or she was just trying not to hurt me by being a rejector herself (deadeyexx's interpretation). If my interpretation holds, then there are options that she has never LJBF-ed me (Jannisy's interpretation) or that she LJBF-ed me but then re-evaluated me when she saw I was more of a prize (my interpretation).

2) Part d indicates LJBF

3) As deadeyexx pointed out, in most cases women chase only harder after a man when they see a competition. So this can either indicate that she wasn't interested in me (deadeyexx's interpretation) or taht she suddenly became interested to the extend that she was too jealous to talk, despite a and b.

4) c, d and e together indicate that she assumed she knew the answer to c, namely that I didn't have anyone to talk to. How did she know it if she didn't even ask me? Probably because I was complaining about my Asperger a lot, so I came across as someone vulnerable who has no luck. That could have been why she was sheltering during the LJBF period of time, and also she wanted to be my friend out of pity. Now again there is alternative interpretation: she might have assumed eveyrone talks to only one person. But taht is highly unlikely since it goes against a and b.

The only way to make sense of this is to say that SHE was also pursuing someone, so it wasn't good for me to talk to her, while SHE is after someone else. But in this case she should have put in the beginning of the email "by the way I am also iterested in somebody". But she didn't. Now it is true that she doesn't have to say everything (just like she doesn't tell me what she ate in breakfast) the context is misleading. I mean in the context I just said I was after someone, and then her response to that email was that it is not good to talk to someone you are interested in when they pursue soemone else. So, wouldn't this context imply that I was the person persuing someone else she was referring to? Adn if so, it would also imply that she was the one interested in me.

But again, if I rip the context off, then logically I do see what you are saying:

(i) She LJBF-ed me

(ii) She was pursuing someone else all along

(iii) She knew I like her, all along

(iv) Thus, she knew all along that she is hurting me due to combination of (ii) and (iii)

(v) Since I was desperate and lonely she wanted to be friends with me out of pity

(vi) Due to how miserable I was, she decided that, on a balance, (v) was stronger than (iv), so she was doing me a favor

(vii) She found out I was trying things out with Jennifer

(viii) In light of (vii), part (v) was no longer as strong. Thus, (iv) became stronger than (v). As a result, she decided she would do me a favor by stop talking to me

(ix) She brought up (iv) in trying to explain her behavior in (vii) and skipped other things

So logically yes it makes sense But the thing is htat IN THE CONTEXT she never told me about (ii), which means I won't be able to make sense of (iv) either. Now I understand why she didn't want to tell me (ii) since she didn't want to hurt me. But she made implicit reference to (ii) while talking about (iv). So by never bringing up (ii), I confused that reference with reference to (vii). So in order not to mislead me, she should have spelled out (ii) by saying "by the way I also am seeing somene" in the beginninng of a sentense.



Why are you saying that LJBF is more blunt than "I don't want to talk any more"? I thought it is the other way around.



But if she were to LJBF me instead of saying lets not talk any more, wouldn't that also amount to taking herself out of the picture?

Why are you saying that LJBF is more blunt than "I don't want to talk any more"? I thought it is the other way around. [/quote]

Not wanting to talk to you is neither blunt or soft, but the REASON is what makes the difference. Rather than saying she isn't interested (blunt), she makes the justifiable excuse that it's because you're seeing another girl (more humane). Saying either would have the same effect, but she will choose the one that doesn't hurt you as much. It's an NT thing.



But if she were to LJBF me instead of saying lets not talk any more, wouldn't that also amount to taking herself out of the picture?[/quote]

Nope. Out of sight (or any senses) = out of mind. She likely believes any tiny bit of energy you spend on her will move you to want to be with her more & less with Jennifer. Don't try to convince her otherwise. In fact why are you still talking about Shawna, & why aren't you on a date with Jennifer right now?

But this means she lied. So how come when I asked you in the previous reply whether you interpret her behavior as lying you said that she dind't; she "only" avoided being blunt. So wouldn't that imply some sort of difference between the two?



In this case talking to me would hurt me in that way even if I weren't seeing Jennifer. After all, some girls might come in the future, and I would be so attached to her by that point that I would not appreciate them any more (this actually happened with my attachment to Anne in 2005).

So are you saying that she originally assumed that I have so low status that I won't be able to get other girls anyway, not in a million years, which is why she felt she was doing me a favor?



Since

(i) The above conversation with Shawna happened two years ago

(ii) Jennifer broke up with me recently

It would be very irrelevent if I were to try to "convince her otherwise" now.

As far as back then, I didn't try to convince her otherwise either, since back then Jennifer was all that mattered. Besides, whether I had Jennifer or not, the whole idea of convincing someone that I am able to accept LJBF ultimately implies that I agree with the fact that I am not a relationship material, so it is self defeating. If I just agreed that I am a loser, why even bother to convince her of anything else. For that reason, back when I was in USA my classic response to LJBF was one of the two:

(i) Convince the girl that she was wrong in LJBF-ing me on the first place. This is VERY DIFFERENT from the kind of convincing you mentioned since I am trying to convince her I am a relationship material, not LJBF. That is strictly a logical argument involving having her to admit that she indeed LJBF-ed me, force her to give me reasons, and then refute them one by one.

(ii) Ending all the contact, and not respond to her if she tries to contact me.

After all, any kind of communication other than (i) amounts to accepting LJBF. So in order to NOT accept LJBF I have to chooce between (i) and (ii).

Now, the above describes my behavior back in USA. But now that I moved to India, my ego is not as sensitive since, first of all, I am lonely, and secondly India is the ultimate reason why I can't date ANYONE, so I don't have to face the fact that I am being treated differently due to LJBF. More about it in a second.



She broke up with me three months ago (see http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt110419.html for more details). Now, I won't normally try to pursue LJBF, especially if I haven't talked to her for two years. The reason I do that now is that I left to India for a post doc, and I am not interested in dating Indian girls; and I don't see any western ones around. I guess it might look very silly if I go to a dating site, contact Western girls I never spoke to before , and ask them to wait for 2-3 years until I am done with a post doc in India. So I decided to contact some people whom I already spoke to while in USA. Now, part of my Asperger is that I am very isolated. So I only talked to girls when I was on a mission to get a girlfriend. Once I got Jennifer I didn't talk to anyone else for any reason. So now that Jennifer left, my only option is to be contacting the girls that LJBF-ed me two years ago.

I know LJBF would stay LJBF, which is why I would never contact any of my LJBF-s if I were in USA; I find the whole attitude of them insisting of staying my LJBF to be offensive. But now that I am in India, I won't have to feel bad about it since I can always lie to myself that the reason I can't be with her is India rather than LJBF. So right now that I feel so lonely being the only Westerner here, I might actually enjoy the sheltering aspect of the pity that LJBF carries with it, at least in Shawna's case.

Furthermore, I was fascinated with the idea of LJBF for the past few years. It started with Anne rejecting me. Given that Anne was willing to spend lots of time with me, I don't see the difference between our behavior whether we are in a relationship or just friends -- especially since I would have refused sex before marriage anyway, for religious reasons. Anne herself said "how would our relationship be any different if we were in a relationship?" So this lead me to believe that the whole point of LJBF is to refuse to give me a TITLE of a boyfriend in order to make FORMAL ASSESSMENT of my "cofidence level" that is found wanting (Anne's reasons for rejecting me is my lack of confidence). This train of thought led me to conclude two things:

A) It is very offensive to be LJBF-ed because it means that woman has a need of making "formal assessment" of my skills just for the sake of assessment which is shallow. If it was about sex then thats different. But since I don't want sex before marriage anyway, why is she so insisting of comming up with negative assessments? So its like the whole point is to put me down AS OPPOSED TO refuse sex, and THAT is what I find so offensive about LJBF, which is why I won't accept it from any woman even if I am not interested in her.

B) In light of the fact that LJBF is only about assessment, I have some fantasiese that actually LJBF-s have much stronger emotional connection than actual gf-s can give. In fact, when I watch women hugging each other, I can't believe they don't actually feel anything; I think they just don't want to give each other titles since they view each other as too "weak" to be qualified. This also is confirmed by the fact that women prefer each other's company to teh company of men. So in this aspect I would actually enjoy being LJBF-ed since that would mean that a girl I talk to viewes me as another girl, which brings me closer to experiencing what it feels like when women hug each other (I even asked one of the girls whether ppl in the friends zone don't have any chance BECAUSE they are viewed as another girl, and that girl paused for a couple of seconds and then said yes!) This theory is also confirmed by my reading that "nice guys finish last" and that a woman would be crying on a shoulders of a guy she LJBF-ed rather than her actual boyfriend who is a jerk. Now if a girl-girl connection is stronger (except for the title of course), and LJBF-ed guy is perceived like a girl, it all makes logical sense. Now, of course in USA I don't enjoy it due to part A, but in India I don't have to feel part A as much.

So because of both A and B my mindset is that a relationship helps self esteem (it gives me a title, part A) while LJBF helps my actual need for emotional connection (part B). Since I HATE being put down through refusal of title, in USA I would never accept LJBF, no matter what. In other words, in USA part A overweighs part B. But at the same time, I still would like to see what LJBF really looks like. On the one hand, it might answer some of the questions I have in A as to "what is the point of the title" and that way I would not be as pissed at Anne. On the other hand, I might have some fantasies due to part B. I would normally satisfy my fascination by watching a movie "just friends" or googling LJBF to see other guys tell their story. Of course, being LJBF-ed one myself is NOT fascinating, it is insulting (see part A), which is why I never resorted to contacting my LJBF-s for that purpose. But right now, since being in India makes it not hurt as much, I might as well do that.

The other part of it is that I am not completely over Jennifer. I am not in love with her, haven't been for the past year, but I still have a feeling like I am "supposed" to be with her simply because we used to be together for two years and she was the one who dumped me, while I was telling her I finally found a way to change. So, since I am too focused on Jennifer in this aspect, I won't take the LJBF comming from Shawna personally. In fact, I would welcome her support if she would feel sympathy for me in what Jennifer had put me through. And in general since I am in India and the only westerner here I feel very lonely so I would welcome any kind of communication comming from USA.

That would, of course, be a lot harder if instead of Shawna it was the girl I AM interested in, such as Anne. In case of Anne I don't see how I can possibly talk to her without feeling a need to argue as to why are we just friends and not in a relationship, even though I haven't talked to her since 2005. In case of Shawna I am not nearly as interested in her, so it should be fairly easy to be on LJBF terms with her and enjoy it. Again, not if I was in USA. In USA I won't EVER want ANY kind of LJBF out of ego. But right now in India my ego is not nearly as strong since being lonely overweighs it on a balance.

I do want a relationship though. In fact, since I want to have better self esteem, I would RATHER be in a relationship than all of the LJBF things I just described put together. Then, once in a relationship, I can always contact my LJBF-s on a free time if I really want to. But agian, I don't see how I would have any luck with ANYONE, given that I would be asking them to wait for 2-3 years until I am back from India. If you have any suggestions, please let me know, and then I will definitely get off Shawna and talk to these other girls with whom I do have a chance.