"Just be yourself"?

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then you abort mission and just be yourself

You shouldn't pretend to be what you are not but..

What if you are a lazy smelly trailer trash drunken loser?

Should you say "People should accept me for who I am"?

Or should you get your act together and try to become someone who deserves to be loved?

That's up to them. I would have still been with my first ex if he wasn't so lazy and worked and not complained all the time and finding excuses and being full of it. He was also too dependant on people and was too needy. He had a choice between me or him and he lost me.

I would have still been with my second ex if he wasn't so ignorant and shallow, narrow minded and had a very negative view about me and so judgmental of people and things.


And there is my husband who was himself and I liked who he was. Only thing that drives me crazy is when he is a slob and uses poor grammar and his snoring but I make them the gray areas. No man is perfect.

Make your criteria too rigid, you will never find someone.

2009, a year I hope disappears into the depths of the abyss and never comes back. oh what would I give to just turn the clocks back. I would call it being yourself exactly but close enough.

Those qualities have nothing to do with being 'deserving' of love; while they may make it more challenging to find the good parts, it does not create a mutually exclusive scenario.


M.

You know, being yourself is important in the long term, I agree with you there. You know, when I wrote up this post, I didn't specify when it is most important to be yourself. I honestly believe that "being yourself" when you're naturally introverted and shy around women IS NOT good when you're trying to attract women.

Why? First of all, if you're naturally introverted and you try to converse with a woman you are attracted to, it is going to be obvious to her that you don't know what you're doing, and her opinion of you will greatly lower, unless she likes shy guys. Secondly, women who are attractive (whom most guys go after, including the "nice guys") are so used to getting hit on by guys that they can't tell the difference between a nice guy or any other kind of guy. They assume that all guys are after the same thing, and will use defensive mechanisms in order to stop guys, like saying that they are taken when they are single, wearing a ring to make guys think that they are married, or hanging out with a group of gal friends for both company and protection, etc.

Introverted guys, who tend to be very nice and friendly, also are easily manipulated because of their good nature. In short, if a woman can easily manipulate you, she won't respect you because you've shown that you can't hold your own, that you're merely a little puppet whose strings she can pull.

So considering all these things, if you're shy and introverted (especially for guys), being yourself isn't good when attracting the opposite sex. It is MORE important to read books and learn about how to deal with the opposite sex, like I'm doing. I suppose to some degree that introspection as to why you're not attracting women might be productive, however it doesn't give you the confidence or assurance of reading and learning how to deal with the opposite sex.

You're right when you said " No one wants to walk into a relationship where they'll be saddled and strangled with someone's negative emotional baggage, which is a good idea--negativity can bring another person down no matter how much they love you."

But tell me, what causes negativity in the first place in people who are romantically unsuccessful and alone? Rejection and resentment for being rejected? Fear of being alone forever? Fear of the opposite sex not finding you worthwhile romantically? One or all of these contribute to negativity, negativity is not the cause, it is the effect.

For instance, my negativity was caused by multiple rejections, which then led to a fear of being alone and a fear of the opposite sex not thinking me worthwhile. Before the multiple rejections, I was optimistic about women. If I had know how to deal with women and how to attract them without being cut down at every attempt, I would have never became negative, because I would have known how to deal with the circumstances.

I believe the same thing applies to negative people. If they knew how to deal with the circumstances, they would have no reason to be negative anymore because there is hope.

I agree with that. I think this is what people are trying to say when they tell you to "be yourself". Also, if you pretend to be someone your not, when you are looking for a relationship, how is the other person going to recongnize that you two are made for each other?

Depression, anxiety, shyness, negative thinking, etc. might be part of a person's personality right now, but these things get in the way of a person being their "best self".

Introverted guys, who tend to be very nice and friendly, also are easily manipulated because of their good nature

Can't say I'd agree with this statement. Most of the true introverts that I know are all pretty self-absorbed and selfish.

Naiviety rather than 'good nature' might be a bigger factor in being manipulated by others.

Being yourself is actually some thing worth putting effort into.

If you are not acting like you, then any girl you meet won't like you, they will like who you are pretending to be. How well do you think that will work out in a relationship?

Again, I have to stress that introversion is not shyness. I know several introverts off hand who are very brazen, loud and even abrasive people, myself included. If I'm shy, it's the result of learned insecurity, not of my natural introversion. Conversely, I've personally known at least a dozen extraverts who were painfully, even debilitatingly, shy--that's social anxiety, and it's not a compensatory condition only introverts suffer from. If anything, extraverts (especially sensitive types) may have a worse time with interactions dating if they have some sort of impairment in their social cognition because they're so people-oriented and dependent. The differences in handling traumatic social situations are different depending on the natural inclination toward introversion and extraversion, but they're generally not more or less in either direction.

There are plenty of women out there who like the mystery of a introverted man, so much so that it's become a cliché. Most of my girl friends are attracted to quiet, introverted, cold men, rather than the adolescent party men. Fun-seeking extraverts are great for a night of fun, introverts exude a sort of stability that appeals to women looking to settle down more, it seems.



I've done a lot of that. What I can say is that my judgments aren't based on assumption, but on the 'fine print'--reading between the lines. I can't speak for all women, but the ones I've known function like me when reading men; if we reject, we generally have a reason and it's not always based purely on assumption, but on all the little signals the guys throw off that may give away their deeper motivations. It's true, though, that women can be enamored by flashy displays and become reeled in by real a*sholes, especially if they were raised to go for that type. It's also to misread a guy based on assumption, but never without some sort of behaviour triggering suspicion in the first place, and a lot of women are quick to run before it goes any further.



Again, I would never say that's the rule at all. Introverts tend to be guarded and even a*sholes, from my experience. Those with insecurity issues are probably more prone to codependent, overly self-effacing behaviours, but that's not at all the rule. Again, lots of extraverts are the same, especially being extraverted toward people and things. The 'people pleasers' I've known have almost always been normal extraverts or anyone with a low self esteem. You're talking about a sort of person that can be collectively referred to as a 'tool,' and that runs the personality gamut. It has far more to do with social intuition than intro-extra cognitive functioning. What we're arguing here is social skills more than anything.



I think this whole discussion is much more about social cognition than shyness, and definitely not introversion. Keep in mind an roughly estimated 50% of the population is introverted naturally. Usually you can't tell. Shyness is social insecurity and can lower your chances of finding someone due to avoidance. But a combination of shyness (social inhibition) and inherent social cognitive impairment are what make it hard for people with ASD to get their foot in the door when dating.

Your book approach is certainly helpful for the way you function, but improving self awareness is really key. If you're aware of yourself, you're more aware of how you come across. This is exercising theory of mind, and you can use whatever method works for you. For most people it's intuitive, but for logical 'aspies,' applied knowledge seems to work really well. And no matter what, it's likely that you're still far better off attracting the smaller population of women who are attracted to guys like yourself. They exist, even if they're comparatively rare.



Number one, I'd bet everything I own there's a strong genetic component that predisposes some people to react more negatively to stimuli than others. It can happen in anyone but probably just takes less in those who have a harder time dealing with negative stimuli. Being very sensitive and having a few negative experiences early on in childhood can probably set a person on a cyclical course of self-defeating behaviour that create the situations even before they happen. It worsens the effect failures have when they do occur, causing even more negative compensation and even self destruction. It all depends.



Becoming negative in those circumstances is understandable. In the case where there are lots of rejections, it could be a lack of self awareness clouding perception of external self image--how a person is being perceived by others. It's also possible to feel optimistic, yet project unconsciously negativity. That's not to say that's what happened in your case, but it's a possibility for anyone. That's why I stress the "Know thyself" approach before anything else. Even if it was just rejections that cause the negativity, they were very possibly the result of not knowing how you were coming across. That's always the case with guys (and other people) I meet, even myself. I'm very vigilant with gaining perspective on myself and my behaviour.



That's very true. It takes outside influence to help right someone who's in a negative funk. I vouch for interpersonal work more than books, but if it works, that's what matters.

A lot of men I know who are fairly adept at finding relationships are much different with the women they're attracted to. For me it's usually obvious whenever they're attracted to a woman, unless perhaps they're convinced they have no chance.

I've read plenty of advice along the lines that you shouldn't treat your romantic interests in the same way that you treat your friends. To me that runs contrary to the "be yourself" adage, for it involves taking on a new set of behaviours and traits.

The extreme choices seem to be:
Be yourself vs. if you want to adopt a behavior “act as if” you already have it.
Perhaps both (or a mixture of the two) are appropriate, depending on circumstances.
Either way you have to know yourself and what you are capable of or it won’t work.

I think the gist of most of the responses this thread gets it right: while you may have to modify a few things in order to increase the odds of initial meet and attract, the larger truth is that you can not sustain a relationship - long run - that is based on you being someone you are not. You need to allow someone to fall in love with who you are, and not who you pretend to be.

Here, let me try to verbalize the concepts more clearly. For truly successful...

...long term relationships: Be yourself by learning who you are. As you do that, learn to expand and 'evolve' your personality in a constructive manner; branch out, experience, learn to interact in a natural, healthy, effective way. For relationships with family, friends and partners, learn to love by giving and focusing outside yourself and your own desires. Not all of this is easy, especially for people with ASDs.

Also, "friends first" can really work. I have a sneaking suspicion many relationships fail because people are trying to get something for themselves by searching out these specific interactions. "I have to get with someone, I have to have a relationship, I have to get married...[etc.]" In my opinion, that's a recipe for disaster. As friends, you can be yourself. If yourself isn't what they're looking for, there's is absolutely no reason why you should try to fake anything else to get it to work because it will only prolong the inevitable.

...casual sex partners: Become a pick-up artist. Learn the moves. You don't have to be yourself to hold together a one night-stand or repeated encounters with a casual sex partner. Rote behaviours can probably get you there just as well as the 'usual NT' way of intuitive social logic. It's just a game at that point.

I agree with your logic on long term relationships and also with the casual sex partners descriptions.

However, what if you use the tactics of a pick up artist to impress women, however not to bed them? This is exactly what I plan to do, to use the tactics of a pick up artist to attract (and manipulate to a certain extent) a woman that I personally find attractive.

The whole premise of picking up a girl (according to the Mystery Method, which I'm reading) is a simple formula: Attract --> Build Comfort --> Seduce. Within those 3 phases are a series of tips and things to look out for. The last stage, Seduce, is the only one that involves anything of a sexual nature. So if you eliminate that, you have Attract --> Build Comfort, the equivalent of a friendship. Except you have control of the situation, you know more than the average guy. You know why attractive women brush off guys, you know why nice guys fail, you know how to break down a girl's defenses and make her value you over the average bub she is used to rejecting. Knowledge is power

Does it involve manipulation? Of course it does. Deviant? Absolutely. Is it being untrue to yourself? Yes. However, if being true to yourself means getting rejected all the time, it would be better to do something different. I'm not a nymphomaniac, and my goal isn't to bed women. My goal is to meet a girl that I'm attracted to, and get to know her and bypass all the stupidity that comes from internalized arrogance and social prejudices concerning dating (for example, people thinking they are better than one another solely based on their physical appearance, or it being socially taboo for someone who has perceived low social value to date someone who is high up on the social ladder).

I now believe that not all attractive women are b*****s, and that if you properly get past their defenses, they will prove to be humane than malicious. Yes, sooner or later, you're going to have to be yourself again, but I'm fairly certain that if you've broken down her defenses and allowed her to trust you, I don't think she will have anything to fear from you and will be romantically attracted to you for who you are, that is if you're a nice, gentleman. I've heard that the Mystery Method is very successful and that a lot of guys have benefited from it, so I know that it works. I only need to put it into practice.