"Involuntary celibacy"

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20 Jul 2012, 4:23 am

see, in a way this is a big part of my issue with it

the narrative around incel puts the issue way way out of scale
hunger? war? poverty? seriously...

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20 Jul 2012, 4:23 am

hyperlexian wrote:

of course - i did say there are SOME factors that can cause someone to be partnerless. but many have factors under their control that they could change, but choose not to. i would call that "voluntary celibacy", but they do not.

So, in other words, you believe that involuntary celibacy exists but don't agree with everyone who might claim that their celibacy is involuntary?

If that's the case, then I agree with you completely.

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20 Jul 2012, 4:26 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:

It's a depressing article. I've read it in the past, as it was brought up several times before. In a way, it's like hunger and war. It's depressing, but it happens, and it happens for a reason. Where war settles conflicts between political, economic, religious, cultural or ethnic groups, and hunger without intervention allows a population to decline to a natural level in relation to food supply, involuntary celibacy seems to stop those who aren't deemed attractive enough as reproductive partners from reproducing.

As others have said, no-one is entitled to a partner. I do however think incel can cause a social cost greater and more far reaching than what you have mentioned, a cost far greater than simply not being able to reproduce. It's something that concerns me.

Edit: I don't by any means mean the cost is anything like comparable to war or hunger circumstances symptomatic of the society not functioning at all. Just that on an individual personal level, the cost can be quite grave.

hyperlexian wrote:

Voluntary celibacy (or 'volcel') is a term for people who abstain from seeking a partner in the first place, whether for religious or other personal reasons. Those who are celibate and seeking a partner and perhaps could improve their chances by shaping up in some way, I would still say are incel.

Last edited by Keeno on 20 Jul 2012, 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Jul 2012, 4:28 am

mds_02 wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

yes, agreed. that is more efficient than trying to get the movement to adopt a new term.

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20 Jul 2012, 4:32 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

see, in a way this is a big part of my issue with it

the narrative around incel puts the issue way way out of scale
hunger? war? poverty? seriously...

I think that all depends on how important the issue is to that specific person. I mean, I know what it's like to be poor. Poor to the point where I didn't always know where I would sleep each night. Poor to the point where I'd try to make a 35 cent ramen packet last for two days. And, during that time, I was more distressed by my inability to get laid than by my inability to have a house or food.

Like Hyper pointed out though, certain factors preventing it were within my power to change. I took control over those things and never looked back.

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20 Jul 2012, 4:40 am

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

see, in a way this is a big part of my issue with it

the narrative around incel puts the issue way way out of scale
hunger? war? poverty? seriously...

Right. I suspect it doesn't bother most guys as much as it does to you or I, but if in this circumstance the incel would distress me more than the poverty too.

The only point where I differ is that it's the social cost that would distress me, not the non-fulfilment of partnering needs.

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20 Jul 2012, 4:48 am

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

see, in a way this is a big part of my issue with it

the narrative around incel puts the issue way way out of scale
hunger? war? poverty? seriously...

Poverty, war, and hunger are social concerns, things that (at least I think) should be tackled by governments and societies.

inability to get laid is not a societal issue, it's a personal problem, and acting like it's a condition, or some innate thing, or some unfair burden, instead of a circumstance, bothers me

because I've seen people claim their dry spell is oppression, because I can't help but hear "the people rejecting me are being unjust"
and because no one should have to justify "no"

and I know this is a flaw with who I've seen championing the concept, and not the concept itself, but I can't divorce the two

Also because it gets used as an identifier. "I'm an incel" instead of "I haven't had luck finding a sex partner"

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20 Jul 2012, 4:57 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

see, in a way this is a big part of my issue with it

the narrative around incel puts the issue way way out of scale
hunger? war? poverty? seriously...

Well, I'm in agreement with you about most of the people who identify as such. I guess it's just that I can seperate the concept from those who identify with it.

Edit: and, I guess I see the main purpose of naming it as being to help those in that situation to cope with it, rather than preventing it from occuring.

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20 Jul 2012, 4:59 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Poverty, war, and hunger are social concerns, things that (at least I think) should be tackled by governments and societies.

Did you know that on the love-shy forum, there's a guy from Croatia who keeps lobbying the government there to address his incel and find him a partner.

Erm, I don't think so.

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20 Jul 2012, 5:07 am

Keeno wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Poverty, war, and hunger are social concerns, things that (at least I think) should be tackled by governments and societies.

Did you know that on the love-shy forum, there's a guy from Croatia who keeps lobbying the government there to address his incel and find him a partner.

Erm, I don't think so.

is that serious or is that a well meaning jape at my post ?

loveshy is out there enough to invoke poe's law if someone trys to parody them

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20 Jul 2012, 5:08 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

see, in a way this is a big part of my issue with it

the narrative around incel puts the issue way way out of scale
hunger? war? poverty? seriously...

I would argue that 'Incel' can be dealt with socially and/or governmentally with legalised prostitution. Of course, most people have personal objections and/or moral objections to the practice and this is why it hasn't been discussed in this thread yet.

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20 Jul 2012, 5:15 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Keeno wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Poverty, war, and hunger are social concerns, things that (at least I think) should be tackled by governments and societies.

Did you know that on the love-shy forum, there's a guy from Croatia who keeps lobbying the government there to address his incel and find him a partner.

Erm, I don't think so.

is that serious or is that a well meaning jape at my post ?

The first one.

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20 Jul 2012, 5:23 am

Duncan wrote:

Those with personal and moral objections would include me then.

Sexual needs can be dealt with by legalised prostitution. Incel can't, simply because I don't see incel as just a sex thing but an inability to connect with possible partners for whatever reason.

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20 Jul 2012, 5:24 am

Keeno wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Keeno wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Poverty, war, and hunger are social concerns, things that (at least I think) should be tackled by governments and societies.

Did you know that on the love-shy forum, there's a guy from Croatia who keeps lobbying the government there to address his incel and find him a partner.

Erm, I don't think so.

is that serious or is that a well meaning jape at my post ?

The first one.

goodness gracious

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20 Jul 2012, 5:29 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Here's something interesting. What's the difference between hunger and war and not being able to get laid? A desire for food, justice and sex - all three - is present in most adults, and the precursors of these things are present in nearly all children. In the same way you say inability to get laid is a personal problem, I could argue that inability to produce or buy enough food to feed yourself or your children or not being able to outrun a group of militants is a personal problem. They are problems, experienced by many people, that exist within almost any given society.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

because I've seen people claim their dry spell is oppression, because I can't help but hear "the people rejecting me are being unjust"
and because no one should have to justify "no"

and I know this is a flaw with who I've seen championing the concept, and not the concept itself, but I can't divorce the two

Then I'd say you're not suited to argue this.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Also because it gets used as an identifier. "I'm an incel" instead of "I haven't had luck finding a sex partner"

Never heard anyone say that. The second one, though, I've heard several times just yesterday. Not today, because I just woke up.

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20 Jul 2012, 5:43 am

The difference between hunger and being horny is that if you don't eat, you'll die. You won't die as a direct result of not having sex.

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