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Why Women Don't Initiate

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WantToHaveALife
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24 Oct 2012, 3:00 pm

Janissy wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
[I also hate, despise, loathe on how too many women will stubbornly insist, argue by saying "men are hunters, blah blah blah", they use that as the excuse as for why men have to do the initiating, approaching


And yet a lot of men really do see themselves as the hunters and are fine with this setup. They want to be the ones who pursue. This presents a problem for you. This is not a problem created for you by women. It's a problem created for you by far more aggressive men. They are not about to give up being the pursuers because they like it that way. You may see this as a burden but lots of men see it as a thrill (such as a man you angrily quoted in another thread). And those men are your competition and they are not going to sit by passively to see if women will come up to them. As long as they outnumber the more passive men, this social setup will continue.

If you can somehow convince them to stop aggressively pursuing women, then women will start being the ones who initiate and approach. But I sincerely doubt you will be able to convince them to give up something they enjoy so that they will be less competition for you.


yeah that very well could be the main reason, but i don't logically get why do so many men enjoy doing the pursuing, chasing, initiating? what it is so fun about it for them?



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24 Oct 2012, 3:23 pm

Does it even matter why? It is what it is.

Deal with it and move on.



Kjas
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24 Oct 2012, 3:50 pm

WantToHaveALife wrote:
Janissy wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
[I also hate, despise, loathe on how too many women will stubbornly insist, argue by saying "men are hunters, blah blah blah", they use that as the excuse as for why men have to do the initiating, approaching


And yet a lot of men really do see themselves as the hunters and are fine with this setup. They want to be the ones who pursue. This presents a problem for you. This is not a problem created for you by women. It's a problem created for you by far more aggressive men. They are not about to give up being the pursuers because they like it that way. You may see this as a burden but lots of men see it as a thrill (such as a man you angrily quoted in another thread). And those men are your competition and they are not going to sit by passively to see if women will come up to them. As long as they outnumber the more passive men, this social setup will continue.

If you can somehow convince them to stop aggressively pursuing women, then women will start being the ones who initiate and approach. But I sincerely doubt you will be able to convince them to give up something they enjoy so that they will be less competition for you.


yeah that very well could be the main reason, but i don't logically get why do so many men enjoy doing the pursuing, chasing, initiating? what it is so fun about it for them?


From what they have said directly when I have asked them the same thing - they prefer taking action and being the ones who chase and initiate because it makes then feel they that they can actively do something and it's the only way to have any control from their point of view in the situation. Standing back and waiting is something they don't like because it's not a solution or a course of action in their minds and for them doing nothing is not an option. They like the competition, and they like the challenge.

A lot of them admit it's nervewracking but that it only adds to the thrill of the entire thing. And of course, if they succeed - it provides social proof, bonding between friends (since competing against their friends is something they do to bond, as well as talking about it afterwards), as well as the possiblity of getting the girl.

For guys who do not thrive on challenge or competition, I can imagine that approaching will not be very appealing for them, based on what other men have said.


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DemonAbyss10
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24 Oct 2012, 8:55 pm

You really can only blame society and so called "Gender Roles" on that. Id go into a long-winded explanation but I have got to leave for work.


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24 Oct 2012, 9:05 pm

DemonAbyss10 wrote:
You really can only blame society and so called "Gender Roles" on that. Id go into a long-winded explanation but I have got to leave for work.


it pretty much is all down to that. Its not something natural about men or women, its just how people act based on the situation they are in.
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/ ... inkel.html

So basically it means women are pickier because they can be, and men less picky because they are more prone to liking something theyre after. Switch the roles and the actions follow the roles



Boxman108
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24 Oct 2012, 10:03 pm

Kjas wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
Janissy wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
[I also hate, despise, loathe on how too many women will stubbornly insist, argue by saying "men are hunters, blah blah blah", they use that as the excuse as for why men have to do the initiating, approaching


And yet a lot of men really do see themselves as the hunters and are fine with this setup. They want to be the ones who pursue. This presents a problem for you. This is not a problem created for you by women. It's a problem created for you by far more aggressive men. They are not about to give up being the pursuers because they like it that way. You may see this as a burden but lots of men see it as a thrill (such as a man you angrily quoted in another thread). And those men are your competition and they are not going to sit by passively to see if women will come up to them. As long as they outnumber the more passive men, this social setup will continue.

If you can somehow convince them to stop aggressively pursuing women, then women will start being the ones who initiate and approach. But I sincerely doubt you will be able to convince them to give up something they enjoy so that they will be less competition for you.


yeah that very well could be the main reason, but i don't logically get why do so many men enjoy doing the pursuing, chasing, initiating? what it is so fun about it for them?


From what they have said directly when I have asked them the same thing - they prefer taking action and being the ones who chase and initiate because it makes then feel they that they can actively do something and it's the only way to have any control from their point of view in the situation. Standing back and waiting is something they don't like because it's not a solution or a course of action in their minds and for them doing nothing is not an option. They like the competition, and they like the challenge.

A lot of them admit it's nervewracking but that it only adds to the thrill of the entire thing. And of course, if they succeed - it provides social proof, bonding between friends (since competing against their friends is something they do to bond, as well as talking about it afterwards), as well as the possiblity of getting the girl.

For guys who do not thrive on challenge or competition, I can imagine that approaching will not be very appealing for them, based on what other men have said.


Yeah, I wish it was the other way around. Or, rather, not that way at all. I don't see the point of having competition at all in this world anymore. All it is is an ego boost and it's pretty childish.

Besides that, anyone that you have to work to impress probably isn't worth any of your time. It'd only lead to a shallow relationship, anyway, if you did succeed at it. You can't really force someone to like you.


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25 Oct 2012, 3:01 am

Likely women generally don't initiate because the patriarchal gender roles tend to portray aggressiveness and assertiveness as masculine traits. Vastly different experiences on men being less picky as in my experience the genders are on similar ground.

I don't think it's weird for a girl to tell random guys she has a partner as some girls probably had their politeness or friendliness be mistaken as sexual interest so a comment about a boyfriend can be an easy way to disarm such a scenario from happening again.



WantToHaveALife
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25 Oct 2012, 4:27 pm

Kjas wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
Janissy wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
[I also hate, despise, loathe on how too many women will stubbornly insist, argue by saying "men are hunters, blah blah blah", they use that as the excuse as for why men have to do the initiating, approaching


And yet a lot of men really do see themselves as the hunters and are fine with this setup. They want to be the ones who pursue. This presents a problem for you. This is not a problem created for you by women. It's a problem created for you by far more aggressive men. They are not about to give up being the pursuers because they like it that way. You may see this as a burden but lots of men see it as a thrill (such as a man you angrily quoted in another thread). And those men are your competition and they are not going to sit by passively to see if women will come up to them. As long as they outnumber the more passive men, this social setup will continue.

If you can somehow convince them to stop aggressively pursuing women, then women will start being the ones who initiate and approach. But I sincerely doubt you will be able to convince them to give up something they enjoy so that they will be less competition for you.


yeah that very well could be the main reason, but i don't logically get why do so many men enjoy doing the pursuing, chasing, initiating? what it is so fun about it for them?


From what they have said directly when I have asked them the same thing - they prefer taking action and being the ones who chase and initiate because it makes then feel they that they can actively do something and it's the only way to have any control from their point of view in the situation. Standing back and waiting is something they don't like because it's not a solution or a course of action in their minds and for them doing nothing is not an option. They like the competition, and they like the challenge.

A lot of them admit it's nervewracking but that it only adds to the thrill of the entire thing. And of course, if they succeed - it provides social proof, bonding between friends (since competing against their friends is something they do to bond, as well as talking about it afterwards), as well as the possiblity of getting the girl.

For guys who do not thrive on challenge or competition, I can imagine that approaching will not be very appealing for them, based on what other men have said.


how does initiation give someone power and control when the passive person gets to do the accepting or declining? whoever does the initiating does not have the final say



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25 Oct 2012, 8:06 pm

WantToHaveALife wrote:
how does initiation give someone power and control when the passive person gets to do the accepting or declining? whoever does the initiating does not have the final say


In the same way that in the BDSM community, it can be argued that the subs have the real power. i.e. they may gift themselves, and the control to the dominant, but in a Safe, Sane, Consensual relationship, the sub always has the power to say "No".



WantToHaveALife
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25 Oct 2012, 8:51 pm

rosemund wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
how does initiation give someone power and control when the passive person gets to do the accepting or declining? whoever does the initiating does not have the final say


In the same way that in the BDSM community, it can be argued that the subs have the real power. i.e. they may gift themselves, and the control to the dominant, but in a Safe, Sane, Consensual relationship, the sub always has the power to say "No".


yeah, c'mon, they act like as if initiation, the pursuit, chasing, always has guarantees when obviously it does not



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25 Oct 2012, 9:41 pm

WantToHaveALife wrote:
how does initiation give someone power and control when the passive person gets to do the accepting or declining? whoever does the initiating does not have the final say


Being passive, just accepting or declining, is simply not an effective strategy for men. Being approached by women is so rare that most guys who stick to that strategy will end up alone. And those few that don't end up alone are more likely to end up in a less than ideal relationship (not that there's anything wrong with those few women who do the approaching but, the fewer potential partners you have to choose from, the less likely you are to find a good match). So a guy who chooses to initiate is in a position of power. Not relative to the women he approaches but, instead, relative to the position he'd be in if he did not initiate.

I've always thought that having power and having options were basically the same thing. The guy who initiates has more options than the guy who hangs back.


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Smartalex
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26 Oct 2012, 3:06 am

shamelessgit, can you summarize your book? lol



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26 Oct 2012, 8:12 am

mds_02 wrote:
WantToHaveALife wrote:
how does initiation give someone power and control when the passive person gets to do the accepting or declining? whoever does the initiating does not have the final say


Being passive, just accepting or declining, is simply not an effective strategy for men. Being approached by women is so rare that most guys who stick to that strategy will end up alone. And those few that don't end up alone are more likely to end up in a less than ideal relationship (not that there's anything wrong with those few women who do the approaching but, the fewer potential partners you have to choose from, the less likely you are to find a good match). So a guy who chooses to initiate is in a position of power. Not relative to the women he approaches but, instead, relative to the position he'd be in if he did not initiate.

I've always thought that having power and having options were basically the same thing. The guy who initiates has more options than the guy who hangs back.


Exactly - it's a numbers game for everyone.
Whoever has more options is statistically more likely to end up with the best that they can.

Due to what society has set up as norm;
That means men approach, the more they do so, the higher the likelyhood of finding something compatible - which is the advantage of competing and challenge.
And it means that women put themselves in the best situation to be approached - hence clothing, make up, the place chosen etc are designed to invite an approach.

Both are playing a numbers game but they have to play it in a different way due to the social norms. Those with the most options are those who do the best, which is why it makes sense under the current paradigm to make the best of it.


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26 Oct 2012, 12:41 pm

Well, the other day I just went against the rules again. We need more women like me around, people.



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26 Oct 2012, 12:44 pm

Kjas wrote:
Exactly - it's a numbers game for everyone.
Whoever has more options is statistically more likely to end up with the best that they can.

Due to what society has set up as norm;
That means men approach, the more they do so, the higher the likelyhood of finding something compatible - which is the advantage of competing and challenge.
And it means that women put themselves in the best situation to be approached - hence clothing, make up, the place chosen etc are designed to invite an approach.

Both are playing a numbers game but they have to play it in a different way due to the social norms. Those with the most options are those who do the best, which is why it makes sense under the current paradigm to make the best of it.


yes, but i feel that a lot of the issues between genders can be put down to how this little game works. one quick example. All the women talking of being objectified by men. When you have to go through dozens if not hundreds of women its hard to not end up thinking of them as just objects. If anything its a defense mechanism to keep one from being destroyed by rejection. Im not saying its right, but just where i think it stems from



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26 Oct 2012, 12:50 pm

^^ Hmm, that's actually a very interesting point. That could explain a lot of things.

Well, the other day I just went against the rules again. We need more women like me around, people.

Because this guy is *very* NT, this is going to be hard. He gave me his number straight away without me needing to ask for it, and I think I overheard him call it a date even though I just asked him out for a coffee.

For some reason, I'm getting real deja vu ATM. Anyway, wish me luck.