AS vs the strip club...

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Anachronism,

Your perception and your feelings about going to a strip club echo mine in every way. Any time I've ever entered a strip club, firstly I've done it as a tag-along through a connection like the one you mention and secondly, the costs were minimal to non-existent for me. Otherwise, it never was, never is, and never will be the kind of entertainment that appeals to me.

And the women who are paid to expose themselves like that, and the pathetic creatures who part with big money in one evening for no more that some drinks and a bit of touching -well that's just a market niche that will continue to exist as long as there are fools around who will part with their gold for that.

With some of the dollar figures I've seen some guys blow in one evening in the strip club, I could just as easily spend that kind of money in my favorite bait and tackle store and come back with a high-end rod and reel. I'll even throw in a case of beer for the fishing camp

Hey, look at the thread that turned into exactly what I said I didn't want! yay!

Sorry about that, but I felt I had to say something because it's something I feel very strongly about. I wasn't saying no one should go, I was just stating some things I think people should maybe take into consideration before going. Shouldn't one always consider the potential ethical implications of their actions?

I guess this is a strange topic for my first post, but it's an area I have some interest in, so I hope you don't mind if I chip in.

First, you use the term "woman's sexuality" frequently. Is a woman's sexuality intrinsically more valuable or special than a man's? If so, why?

Second, what is it that makes sexuality "essential" or "priceless?" These women have chosen this job of their own free will — there is certainly a lot of coercion in illegal prostitution, where things are often commingled with drugs and organized crime, but not so much in legal sex work such as stripping. If you would deny these women the opportunity to choose such a profession, you would be forcing them to pursue alternatives that they themselves would find less appealing. Many (most?) strippers don't consider their work demeaning, and it allows them to provide for their families, or afford other pursuits such as school.

If you find sex-related work to be demeaning, then that's a very good reason for you to avoid it personally. It's not a solid basis, however, for faulting others who may not share your feelings. Why is your opinion that it is demeaning more relevant than their own feeling that it is not?

Third, I've always felt that, in most situations, you can tell who's being exploited by following the money. Strippers and exotic dancers, in general, get paid quite a lot. There was a case recently where a few corporate executives were in hot water because they spent over a quarter million dollars on strippers in a single night (using the corporate credit card, of course). Do you really think it's the women who are being exploited in a situation like that?



Certainly it's their choice, but it's more complicated than that. Testosterone is a powerful force. Based on my own experience, I would say that raging hormones can impair judgement just as much as being drunk. Being in an environment where those hormonal urges are deliberately provoked is enough to make even the most rational man make poor decisions. I would say the tactics used by many strippers are equivalent to a man getting a woman drunk so that she'll agree to sleep with him. In both cases, the person technically has a choice, but is under so much outside pressure that it can still be considered exploitative. True, the man chooses to go to the strip club, but the woman also chooses to go to the bar (or wherever).



Here's that phraseology again: a woman's sexuality is "priceless," but a man's is "base." What is your rationale for making those judgements? Can't a woman's sexuality be equally "base?" I know plenty of men and women whose views on sex are opposite to the way you seem to expect them to be.



Or maybe they like the attention they get because of their sexuality. What's wrong with that? To paraphrase Dr. House, why is a genetic gift of intelligence inherently better than a genetic gift of beauty? Why should a person, male or female, be more proud of the former than the latter?

Don't get me wrong; I know that many men focus on appearance to the exclusion of all else, and I think that's dumb just as much as you do. But a woman who is a sexual extrovert has a skill (or personality trait, if you prefer) that is in high demand. If she would prefer to make a living that way over, oh, working as an engineer...well, who are we to question her decision?



Developing and maintaining physical appearance also requires a lot of work — often hard physical work such as intense exercise. And it's not like strippers and other sex workers just stand there motionless; their job is to act in a way which both excites men and puts them at ease. The job is primarily social, not physical. In fact, an average-looking woman who knows how to project the right attitude is going to be much more successful as a stripper than one who is physically perfect but doesn't know how to use body language or the right way to talk to customers to pique their interest. As an Aspie (I assume?), I'm sure you can appreciate that that's not a trivial task.



No argument there; all you have to do is look at average salaries and other statistics to see that that's true. However, I think you maybe take things a little too far. I agree that we need to work very hard to make sure women are not appreciated only for their sexual attractiveness, but I think it's an overreaction to say that sexuality is not a legitimate thing to appreciate, or that doing so is necessarily "base."

Jeremy

good point. very good point indeed. in fact, points.

/me nods, thoughtfully.

I concur. Excellent post, toddjh.

You had some very good points toddjh. Actually I'm glad you pointed those things out because it prompted me to think about things more carefully. My previous responses were pretty emotional as well as logical (and they probably still will be ), because it affects me on a personal level when I hear about violence or rudeness or ridicule towards women-not saying right off the bat that strip clubs fall into this category-more on that in a bit. I have been deeply affected by people's attitudes towards unattractive women as I've always felt I've fit into this category. This is a pretty grey area and I don't think any solid conclusions will ever be reached without careful research and analysis, I'm just throwing in my two cents here in a topic that is very personal to me and others too, I'm sure. I guess I should state right away that I'm not saying that everything about them is bad, but there are some things about them that are shady in respect to the way women are being treated. I'm not saying they should be made illegal or anything, but I think everyone should just take a long carefull look at them, and research done, and attitudes towards women improved, before everyone gets all gung-ho about them and lets them off the hook 100%. That's all.

But anyho, now it's time to address some of your questions. I should have been more clear on my feelings of womens' and mens' sexuality-I was a little ambiguous. I feel that they are equal of course, but since females have, in terms of sexuality (and in terms of their gender too, of course) been treated with less respect-and in some cases with outright brutality-I guess I am a little protective and defensive about it and sometimes get carried away. Another reason that I focused more on it was that I don't see mens' sexuality being exploited nearly as often (and it is sometimes, which I totally disagree with)-and once again, I'm not jumping the gun here and saying that the topic in question is. So for that reason as well I am pretty defensive about it, and my arguments do tend to be pretty emotional and not always logical or objective (and probably still will be) which I know isn't the best way to go about it-but I still feel the need to say something and put my two cents in so to speak. I should have explained something pretty important to my arguments; I view sexuality as one part of a whole person. I'm not saying it's wrong to see it another way though-as something independent, that is. I just think that if I think it's ethically wrong to put a price on a person or any part of a person. That's what I mean by priceless. I just think that paying for a person or part of a person is making a commodity out of them-it's exploiting them. Ok, I see a potential problem in this argument-if a person is using, say, some skill or talent-a part of themselves-and being paid wages for it, it could be called exploitive by the same argument. However, it isn't the skill itself that is being paid for, it's how the person applies it, and the time they spend applying it-the intangibles. Ideally, the person is separate from the work (the whole it's not personal, it's business thing), and therefore the person is still regarded as a whole person. However, in work that involves sexuality, the person is inseparable from their work as it is a part of them. Indeed they are applying their skills, but these skills still involve their sexuality. So in a sense, it is the whole person that a monetary value is being placed on, which is making the person, not just their service, as the service is more intimately linked with the person than in any other type of profession, a commodity or an object. I know, I know, it's probably a weak argument and is begging to be torn apart, so go ahead.

I said that male sexuality is equal as well, and it is, and I know that these places are sexually pleasing to men, and I'm not saying they don't have a right to be pleased in such a way. I know it's extremely important. I just don't think they ever should do that at the expense of women, or to the endangerment of women-physically or psychologically, or in a way that makes female sexuality less equal than male sexuality. I should have been a lot more clear when I called male sexuality base, I only think it's base in the above situations-when it's harmful to women or makes them less equal-pleasure at their expense (an intangible expense, I know they're making money, but money is replaceable in most situations, other things, often more intangible things, aren't). I'd say the exact same for women.

I know, I know, in those places men are paying for the pleasure and women are getting paid, but for me at least it's not about the money, it's a lot more complex than who's getting paid and who's doing the paying in terms of being exploited. There are a lot of other issues such as the potential objectification of women, their self-respect and the respect that is shown to them, the potential psychological impacts, and the way our culture as a whole regards women, the dangers they face, and more. They may not be as obvious as the money, but they are no less important. Unless they have an addiction to it or something, I don't think the men are losing a whole lot other than money, which is easily replaceable, by going to these places. But, and certainly there might be some women who enjoy it and get fulfillment out of it, but I'm willing to bet that there are a significant number who, although they are making lots of money, suffer psychological impacts-and even physical ones. I'm not saying they do, maybe they don't, I think a lot more research needs to be done to determine this. I wouldn't be surprised though, that in these places they are often called names, and that outside of them solicited for sex, stalked, or worse, and that in their personal lives are stigmitized. I could be wrong, but I know that this has been problematic at establishments throughout the world. Whenever this is going on, there's definately something wrong, I think it's exploitive, personally. If these things aren't going on, great, but that doesn't mean their aren't other impacts or dangers. Men may be losing some money, but women have a lot more to lose. Women may be making lots of money, but some may not have a choice. And some may be losing things that cannot be replaced by money no matter how much they are making. Some are using it for the purposes of higher education and upward mobility, certainly, but not all. In Britain and Scotland, a study was done in 1998 involving a number of strip clubs. Several strippers claimed to be university students, but further interviewing revealed inconsistencies in their statements. Not saying they're all lying about it, but no doubt this is exaggerated by club owners, the media, etc. to make them look more innocuous. In addition, I think there is probably a tendency for men who have gone to take their attitudes outside of the strip clubs and place expectations on women in terms of their looks and sexuality that are very difficult to attain, as well as a tendency to treat them somewhat if not totally as objects.

You mentioned that the influence of testosterone can be very powerful, but you mentioned that this takes place once already in the establishment. They don't have to go in there to begin with though. They know they're going to be giving away money. If a person can't handle their alcohol, for instance, and they don't have an addiction, and they know it makes them do dumb things, and they do it, that's still their decision, and they should still be held responsible. Unless they are addicted, and this probably has happened, I don't think the men are victims and while by definition they are being exploited, it's not as big a deal for them. They can replace their money. Yes, they may have poor judgment once inside, but if they don't like the idea, they don't have to go in. I don't know if there are any victims here (except of course the women who are abused-and this does happen at strip clubs around the world) but if there are, men are not it.

Another thing to remember is that we live in a male-dominated society; I don't think there's any question about that. I think this definately has an impact on the industry. I'm sure there are women who like what they do, but this is in the very complex context of a society that tells women from day one what it's expectations are of women, what is desireable for women, how they should act, how they should look, etc. all from a male-dominated perspective. Women, however subtly, tend to be placed in a more submissive role in relation to man's dominant role. Sexuality is no exception. If this were different-if men and women were truly equals and society, and it was dominated by neither, I think it would impact this. I have no way of knowing of course, it's just an inkling, but something I think should be considered. I wonder if women didn't have full freedom and flexibility and equal pay in all professions if less would chose this. It's true that if we make such places illegal-and I'm not saying we should-that we would be taking away a career choice. I just think that if we examined them more carefully, and society changed to be more respectful towards women and equal, maybe other career choices would be more attractive. And, if all that happened-if we changed the way we looked at and treated women, and women still chose stripping, then, and only then would we know it's not exploiting them. I have little doubt that there is a strip club, if not several, if not many, in which one if not more of the strippers is working there because she was pressured into sex by her boyfriend, or made to feel like it was expected of her, and got pregnant, and her boyfriend bolted, and was faced with a new life to take care of and little money, and doesn't particularily like stripping. But men oogle all over her anyway, maybe even call her names, taking their pleasure without even knowing who she is because she is not regarded as a whole person even though her service is inextricably linked to her whole self. That is what we loud-mouthed, annoying feminists like to call misogyny. But of course the patrons don't particularily care about the strippers themselves. They just go for a good time. That's why we still don't know much about them, or their views on the job, and why the empowerment idea-true for some women, maybe, but probably not for all, as studies have shown-has thrived. I know, I know, there are probably employers of other professions who have employees in that situation and pay them crap. I think that's wrong too. And misogyny, regardless of whether the employer is a man or a woman.

Ah yes, you mentioned that it makes no sense for extrinsic qualities such as beauty to be held in higher regard than intrinsic qualities such as intelligence. I agree. I don't think an intelligent person is any better than a person of lesser intelligence, just as I don't think a beautiful person is any better than a non-beautiful person, if one were so inclined to categorize people in such a way. It's not the quality or the skill, it's how you use it. IMHO, beauty is pretty far down on my list of useful qualities where people are concerned, and there really are no substitute qualities for people who "lack" it, making things very difficult for people who do (such as myself). That's why I think it's harmful to people to focus too much on it, and, unfortunately, our culture-t.v, magazines, porn, stip clubs all included-does that way too much, setting up standards-especially for women-that are unattainable by most. That's why I don't think it's all that important and why we should focus more on a person's unique blend of qualities and the person as a whole.

I know, I know, it's a very gray area, I'm probably just being extremist and overly emotional, you can probably all tear my argument to pieces. Just had to say something, that's all. Sorry. I'm not enjoying this or anything. It's pretty draining to me to talk about it, but I feel I must.

I understand. Although I think many women don't give themselves enough credit in that department (thanks in part to the unrealistic standards that you mentioned), there's certainly a lot of discrimination that goes on out there. I agree with you completely that we need to stop that.



Oh, I'm not trying to tear anything apart...I just don't feel the same way about it, that's all. I think I know what you mean when you say that sexuality is an inseparable part of the person. My question, though, is, isn't intelligence also an inseparable part of the person? Why is a job based on sexuality different from a job based on intelligence? Why is one making the person a commodity, but the other is just performing a service?



Saying that money is replaceable is probably a kick in the teeth to people who are struggling to make enough money to eat, or buy clothes for their kids. Money is a necessity for survival. If you could make $500 working four hours a night as a stripper, or pull double shifts waiting tables for one-quarter the money...can you blame a single mother for taking the option that gives her more money and lets her spend the day with her kids?



But shouldn't we leave it up to the women in question to decide those things? Why are we a better judge than the people who are actually in that line of work?

I can see why some people think being a stripper is degrading, but to me it's even more degrading to presume to substitute our judgement for theirs. They're adults; they have the right to decide for themselves what they want to do. If they don't have a problem with their chosen occupation, then why should we? Live and let live.



But that's true of many jobs. Think about being a soldier. It's an incredibly difficult and stressful job, and often physically dangerous. Should we disband the military? And the police, for that matter? Firefighters and ambulance workers, too — those are some of the most dangerous and psychologically difficult jobs in the world. And they don't even pay all that well.

I know what you're probably thinking: those things are necessary for society, while strip clubs are not. But that's committing the same error I was talking about above: trying to impose our judgement about what's "necessary" on others. I say we let people decide for themselves what they want to do for a living, and what they want to spend their money on. The market will determine whether or not it's worthwhile.



Oh, I'm sure. I bet some strippers are doing it for drug money. Like I said earlier, I know a lot are single mothers trying to make ends meet. I'm sure some women just do it because it pays pretty well. And I'll even bet some of them actually do enjoy it.



That's a good point, and I don't know what to say about it except that I think those men would have those same attitudes regardless of whether they went to a strip club or not. I think the high demand for strippers is a small symptom of the underlying problem, not a contributing factor. In other words, I think men go to strip clubs because they already have unrealistic expectations about attractiveness and sex. The strip clubs are just fulfilling an existing demand, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that: people are taking advantage of an economic niche to make a living. That's the American way!

The problem needs to be addressed at the source. Attitudes toward women need to change, and then the resulting issues will clear up naturally. The problem is, I have no idea how to get that to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of male attitudes toward women are hardwired, in which case we're probably screwed for a long time. Still, women are gaining more and more economic power as time goes on, and they're a majority of the population, which means they can pull the strings in democratic societies. So there's some reason for hope.



Ah, here I have to disagree with you. Sexuality is an exception. There's no question that men have a disproportionate amount of economic and political power, but women hold the sexual reins and always have...there's a reason prostitution is called the oldest profession. That's why I think that it's men, not women, who are being exploited by the sex industry. If you'll forgive a crass economic metaphor, high demand and limited supply means it's a seller's market. The fact that there is hardly any demand for male strippers (or prostitutes) compared to females shows just how big the sexual power gap is. Men want what women have, which means that women have the power in that arena.

Stripping is a great example of this phenomenon at work: men are trading what they have (economic power, in the form of fifty dollar bills) for what the women have (sexual power, in the form of lap dances).



That's possible, but that example has nothing to do with stripping in particular. It could've been any crappy job that she was forced into. And plenty of men are forced into jobs they don't like because of the same circumstances. The stereotypical "bad guy" scenario is the deadbeat dad who bolts, and the stereotypical "bad girl" is the woman who gets pregnant to trap a man.

And, as much as the woman in your example doesn't like stripping, if it weren't an option then she'd have to go get another job she likes even less...is that really better?

It's a really complicated issue.

Jeremy

After reading anachronism's post, my first thought was, I am very glad I don't work in a strip club.

I do tend to agree with midge though, about exploitation, because many women in the sex industry (even if they enjoy their jobs) were sexually abused as children. This makes them more willing to "give themselves away" in a sexual way when they're older, because they were conditioned to see it as normal from the time they were young. But I also agree with the notion that the men are being exploited and cheapened at the same time.

I know 2 women who were strippers. Both of them claimed to really enjoy the experience and the power it made them feel over the men. Both of those women, also, had been sexually abused as children (by their fathers) so I guess in some very weird way they felt they were turning the tables on men? I don't know.

Then again, if a person wants human connection, and can't find it elsewhere, is it so horrible to try to turn that connection into a commodity? People pay huge amounts of money to have a psychiatrist listen to them talk, and the psychiatrist doesn't truly care about the patient.

I worked as a nanny for a couple years in college and sometimes I reflected that babysitting felt like a weird sort of prostitution, since I was being paid to care (or to pretend to care) for these children. Or, that perhaps prostitution was a weird form of babysitting.

Yeah, definately it's a very complicated issue. I think some more research really ought to be done about it. Some has, which is good.

Oh yes, definately intelligence is an inseparable part of a person. I see what you're saying here. But people aren't paid just for being intelligent, it's a lot more complex than that. They are being paid for the things they do with it in a complex combination of other things. I guess I should elaborate- an architect isn't being paid for their qualities necessarily, but the plans they draw up-the manifestation of all these things. A therapist isn't getting paid just for trying to be helpful, but for the things they say and how the client responds to them. Although I definately agree that it takes a lot of skill to be good at stripping, the outward manifestation of these skills is still sexual and still very closely connected to the stripper. And they are using their body in the process. So I guess I just find the use of the person's skills to be just a little too close to the person for comfort, so to speak-that is, the stripper still seems to me to be very intimately connected to her/his work which makes the fact that it's being offered and paid for a little too ethically shady IMHO. It's close enough that they are classified by some as sex workers. I guess you could argue that in some professions-physical comedians, for instance, people are using their bodies and other inherent properties as a direct vehicle for humor. However, there are subtle differences; the comedians generally have no direct contact with the audience, especially not intimate contact, and they are not revealing more intimate parts of themselves. It's a very subtle difference though, I know, but an important one-see the last few sentences of my fourth paragraph.

Oh yes, certainly money isn't replaceable for all, when I said that money was replaceable, I was talking about the men going there-it's probably replaceable for them, and not too big of a deal if they lose it, therefore I don't really consider them victims. I don't blame women one bit for doing it because it makes them a lot of money, it's just that I think it's really too bad if it's the only thing that does and there should be alternatives. No one should ever have to work a crappy job. People do of course though-I have too. It goes with my belief that no one should ever have to live in poverty-it's immoral and inhumane to let people live like that. I think it is saying something that for some women there are no good-paying alternatives, because it makes it quite possible that it's the only reason they are there-it's certainly a motivating factor at least. Oh yes, and that reminds me that many of them work at night. That, combined with the nature of their work, is putting them in a dangerous position that they shouldn't have to be in. Especially if they have children. I'd say the same for any job that makes women work at night in a place and a type of job where they are an easier target for violence against them. I think it's wrong to put any worker in danger, not just these types of workers. I know that sometimes it's a necessity though, but in that case we should do our utmost to keep them safe and make things easier for them. And I do think it's pretty horrible the way we treat many of our workers, especially the ones who are in danger. I think we should work towards peace, take greater steps to prevent crime, and relentlessly work to improve workplace safety. Yeah, I'm a big idealist, and I guess my view towards strip clubs involves a lot of idealogical thinking. I guess I'm not talking so much about what the situation is, but what I think should happen in terms of our attitudes before we totally accept these places and let them off the hook. I'm not being idealistic in my thoughts on strip clubs and realistic about everything else at the same time. So I'm really not saying that we should protect strippers and just let everyone else continue doing what they're doing. We should protect everyone. Whether it's paramedics or strippers and prostitutes (who are often targeted by serial killers). And paramedics, firefighters, and soldiers get a helluva lot more respect than strippers and prostitutes. A stripper could be raped and a prostitute killed by a serial killer, and you won't hear nearly as much about it if it had been anyone else. That's true what's necessary for one person may not be necessary for another, but relative to the most necessary jobs, I think this one falls pretty far down the list. I think it's a lot more necessary for lives to be saved, for people to be fed and clothed and sheltered, than it is for a man to be sexually excited in such a fashion-especially when there are umpteen other ways to do it, whether he's in a relationship or not. I know to some it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to be so idealistic, but to paraphrase from one of my favorite plays, The Man of La Mancha, the greatest madness of all is to see things as they are, and not as they ought to be. If we had just accepted things the way they were, we wouldn't be where we are today. If we just accept things the way they are, we won't go anywhere beyond where we are today.

Oh yeah, I guess I really do have a bad tendency to substitute my judgment for other people's, like you said. I didn't mean to imply that they can't make that decision for themselves, I feel bad that it comes across that way though and that I probably actually was because it was implicit in my arguments. It's just that I think it's really complicated by the society we live in and the attitudes we have. I think that only if we changed all that, and women still chose to do it, would they and the rest of us really know for sure. Negative attitudes about women, poverty, the difficulty of upward mobility, all serve to complicate the situation (see my second to last paragraph for elaboration). It's not as simple a matter as whether or not a woman enjoys it. Also, not all of them do enjoy it. Two studies I looked at showed that they expressed ambivalence, so at least some of them didn't. Plus, even if they do genuinely enjoy it, it doesn't mean that the men respect them, and that is also very important. Somehow I think that if someone truly respected someone else, they wouldn't want to see them in that position. I know sometimes women strip for their partners, but other people aren't watching and paying for it. If the men really respected them, I think they'd want to look into these places before going to make sure they're safe and that all the women there enjoy it and chose that place over all else, which is not always the case. And they wouldn't call them names or heckle them. And I think they'd try to be more restrained towards women in general too. A guy may want to have sex with his girlfriend, but if he respects her, he'll wait until she wants to too. And that's not yet another example of women controlling men. That's an example of two human beings who care about each other coming to a mutual agreement on an important decision. I hold women to the same standards. But here is something I think is very important in any debate on this topic. If people respect a person, and see them as a whole person, and they go on stage and reveal the most intimate inner and/or outer parts of themselves to the audience, or they do so with one other person, the experience will be very moving, profound, and beautiful and they will be in awe. I dream of the day when a woman can expose the most intimate parts of herself, including her body, to a man, and he will regard the experience with the same awe, and find it just as moving, profound, and beautiful.

That's true that these places aren't really a contributing factor, but I do think they tend to perpetuate the problem, especially now that they've become more mainstream.

About men and women being unequal in terms of sexuality, the man being dominant: yes, it is true that in the heat of the moment, in the short term, in such situations, the woman has some control. However, it is the male-dominated society and the men themselves who set the standards for these things. Women might be able to exert some power over men by being attractive and enticing, but it is men who set the standards for what is attractive and enticing. What she should wear, how she should act, what parts should have hair and what shouldn't, and many other things-it's all controlled by men. The strip club and prostitition industries I'm sure are largely controlled by men-I know the porn industry is. It's still happening today-you don't have to look any farther than the magazine section at your local grocery store to see t this-you're bombarded with magazines that tell women how to look and what to do to be more appealing to men. It is true that women have the choice to accept these standards, but not choosing to is a hard, lonely road so it's not surprise that they do. I know because I've been there. As stubborn as I was about sticking to my principles (and I guess you've gotten an idea of how stubborn and idealistic I can be-I can be a real donkey!) sometimes it was really tempting to put on makeup and make myself look good just so guys would be interested-which for many years they weren't. I watched my non-makeup wearing, modestly dressing friends go through the same thing. Once, I saw one of them called names by some of the guys at school. Her name was Gina, and they changed it to make it rhyme with a certain female body part. I actually did adopt some of the standards for how I should look once; at one time, I didn't shave my legs, and my sister told me about some guys who were sitting in front of us at a baseball game who were looking at my legs and snickering, so I started shaving them whenever I wore shorts in public because I didn't want to be laughed at again. Yeah, we can control men with our looks, etc. but for some of them it's practically the only way to get their attention! And some of them still don't take us seriously! I'll bet the enjoyment in stripping really does, for some, come for the reversal in power. They've probably been dominated by men their whole lives, or at some points in their lives, or they've been overlooked, or it was the only way to get attention. So yeah, they may be enjoying it then, but that's not a very good reason, is it? Some women get implants-which can be dangerous-because previously they had been overlooked and felt they had more power this way. From day one we are inundated with images of attractive women getting all the men and the attention and even being given stuff for free, and I don't know about other women but it made me feel like garbage. Hardly an average looking woman can be found in the male-dominated entertainment industry and media because they think the attractive women are more sexually appealing and that seems to be the number one priority. The most well known men are those who've accomplished great things; the most well known women are the sexually appealing ones. The media pays a heckuva lot more attention to Paris Hilton than female scientists, politicians, etc. (save for the one whose husband was involved in a sex scandal). And a woman can get raped and if she is known to have been promiscuous, or was dressed provacatively, at least some of the blame is put on her even though she said no. Just look at the Kobe Bryant case. Also, and I know this certainly isn't always the case, but in many situations, when two people have intercourse, the man is usually guaranteed enjoyment, whereas the woman is not-sometimes, if not often, intercourse will end when the man finishes. And if women have so much control over men with our sexuality, how do you explain 10,000 plus years of male oppression of women in just about every culture? How do you explain why a woman has rarely if ever gotten as far with the power she has in her sexuality as a men have gotten by merit? WHO'S REALLY IN CONTROL?????? People are so quick to think that females have so much control over males with their sexuality and so much control over the situation without taking into account the broader historical and cultural context surrounding it. If they did, they'd see what a crap deal women have always gotten, and still get. Whew, sorry about that, this subject makes me pretty emotional. Which makes it more complicated I think. Or maybe too simple. I don't know

Oh yeah, that's a good point about the men who don't really get any other forms of attention, en_una_isla. I was just thinking about that last night actually. I guess they, along with people who are addicted to it, are indeed being exploited in this situation (before I guess I was mainly talking about the patrons who had relationships or a good shot at them anyway, and just went there for a good time or whatever). I guess they really do need something. I think there should be other really good alternatives that help them find meaningful friendships or relationships rather than a situation that is potentially exploitive to both parties. That's important. Well, that's all I have to say I guess.

3 years ago I went to a strip club in San Francisco with my male cousins.I paid $25 for the entrance and once I got inside of the club,a an exotic dancer grabbed my left arm and asked me if she wanted to give a lap dance.I didn't know what to say,so I said no.Anyhow I got a lap dance from an attractive dancer,and when I got it I felt she was crushing my crutch.In other words,I don't want to go these places again,because if I do I'll get a panic attack.

Way to revive a 4-year-old thread...

I loove belly dancing. Doing it in real life for another guy has never lived up to my expectations though. I think that when women dance for strangers, it forces the man to sit there and get into it and so the two people connect better. Ideally, it's not a power play but more of a form of expression. IRL, it's too grabby with no expression, build up, or catharsis.
Some things are better left for the imagination.

Wow yeah, old thread. It included a very interesting discussion on a highly controversial topic though, well worth reading.

You belly dance magnus. That's sexy lol. Are you assyrian or middle eastern of some sort?

I had an English teacher who belly danced.

I don't like strip clubs, most of the women are drug users and/or prostitutes, it's a nasty job, I was thinking about working in one, but I wouldn't want to get involved in drugs and sex.