Learn to be social before trying to be in a relationship

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Tahitiii, I think knowledge of self is enormous - probably past any of this. Yes, you build knowledge of self by getting out there and by figuring out what you are as well as what you aren't. Overall though, there are aspects of everyone's personality where they still have some room to grow, ample room to grow, or whether its an area where its as if they have an iron bar through that part of their brain and growth is something that their physiology quite literally will not allow. From there, if a person does have absolute limits in inconvenient places it doesn't mean its all for naught but it does mean that you have to change up your game plan, whether its changing how you will get what you want or whether you'll try to work on your own mind and shift your focus (particularly what you see as prerequisite for happiness) away from it if you realize that its realistically unattainable.

That said though, I'm pretty sure that sunflower was really just using that illustration as an analogy to communicate what she was thinking on this topic. Yes, your right that you can't take these kinds of things too literally or being true always/never. Still without generalities we'd have little hope of communicating complex ideas about people and culture, they're kind of necessary from that that standpoint.

Well said.

I would move boyfriend/girlfriend relationship directly above "making a friend." If you can have one relationship with a friend, you can one relationship with a boyfriend/girlfriend:


Learn how to enter a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship
--------
Making a friend
--------
Maintaining an acquaintance
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Having a two way conversation

That's true - this thread is more aimed at trying to explain concepts I have picked up on than stating "This ladder is exactly how the social world works". Acting is definitely good, as is psychology. I have done acting and am currently studying psychology.

I have to disagree about learning social skills though, it is possible to figure out social skills through logic and reasoning and arrive in similar places to NT's who have learned them instinctively. I am positive on this as this is what I have done, therefore I know it can be done. Of course every person is different and some people will learn different stages in different orders, that is a given (again - this ladder is an extremely rough approximation I came up with out of the top of my head, to illustrate an abstract concept in concrete form).

However MOST (there of course will be some small minorities who will marry someone for which no mainstream communication skills will matter) people will not be able to go from something like not being about to communicate properly in NT fashion with anyone to having a girlfriend. Logic and common sense will tell you that. And it's logical to start with the social basics that most NT's pick up when they're small children, and them move on from there into more complex realms such as relationships. It's like following the stages of development from childhood to adolescence to adulthood just in a different time frame to NT's.

And NT's do have to learn some social skills, such as table manners, etc. NT's aren't born knowing how to socialize, they are taught concepts of right and wrong, and manners, and being polite from their parents. They just pick up more, and pick it up much faster, on their own than we do.

Although you make a good point Tahitii that I am certainly no expert, and everyone should take what I am saying as ideas sharing rather than authority. I do tend to write in an academic argumentative style, which probably makes me come across as an authority on the things I write about.

I don't think most people fit as being on a certain rung of the social skills hierarchy that the OP has talked about. I guess I have a loose knit group of NT "friends," I have asked girls out, been in short term relationships, etc. But I still feel like I am on the bottom few rungs as a person. Dunno what to do anymore. Don't even give a fu*k most days either. I'm just trying to survive the days and pay my taxes.

Here's again the only thing I have to emphasize - it branches out even further from there. What your talking about culminating is social know-how, getting what's going on around you, that in and of itself is very important. In my own analogy of experience, when I was 20 I felt like even though I had a lot of friends that I still had a long way to go. Certain pressures that I had on me at the time were practically crushing, to the point that I had a drive in my gut to self improve out of my AS, completely, that it felt like it was a life or death matter. I gave it my all for six or seven years, I had areas that I could progress in but I also had areas that practice made nothing (well, aside from forcing me to be more compassionate with myself rather than pulling out the brass knuckles over every little thing that I felt like I slipped up on).

Most people I think have these issues to one degree or another, ie. absolute limits, areas where they not only come up short in life right now but will - indefinitely. I've learned that, for the sake of my own mental health, I have to stop and realize that if I try to bang my head on my obstacles and bull-charge my way through something that can't be changed, I'll exert what precious little energy that I have and really do nothing but damage to my own functioning.

I'm not saying this to negate any of your advice, people need to do the best with what they have. Still, I think its worth bring up as an FYI. Part of the later 20's is trying to calm down what started in your early 20's (the over-the-top ambition for self-perfection) and reconciling it with reality. Even now though, what I know that I physically can't change socially - I try to overcome through bettering myself in other areas, I had to because I knew that I'd maxed myself out on that front.

What makes a personal exceptional, noteworthy, attractive? Is it the person who has brought themselves to an average level in all things, or someone who excels at their gifts while having deficits? The latter has always attracted me more, and made more sense to me as a person. I could spend the energy to gain 1% in this area, or 5% improvement in several others - it became a simple matter of efficiency and effectiveness. Thoughts of others?


M.

Unless you're looking for someone over the age of 40, I don't recommend it for that reason. I'm in 3 church choirs (more because I can sing, not to find people), and except for this one high school choir I'm in (despite being a college student), damn near everyone is 40+...

Also no offense OP, but you are only 20. How much can you actually know about being an adult with AS in social situations?

Edit: Nevermind.

Last edited by Cyberman on 05 Apr 2009, 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Some people age early; some people never mature. She has only offered her outlook as a template - and honestly I think it is one of the more reasoned approaches that I've yet seen here. And it is offered as an alternative for those who are embittered. While I can understand skepticism, it is also important to remember hope, opportunity and perspective as well. In my beliefs, there are different ways for everyone; yours will likely and in fact should be different from another person's. Looking back, my own evolution took many of the same steps - some completely new, most in a slightly different order - so I can appreciate looking at the structure, seeing the parallels. I agree with you, Space, in that you can't niche people it is still possible to look as aspects and evaluate those.


M.

You can get relationship without being social. Look at me, I hardly have any friends and I am going to get married in two months. I had men come to me on diapermates when I had a profile there so I was going around meeting men when I moved to Portland. I did try to come to a guy when I lived in Montana who only lived an hour away from me but I never heard back from him. I showed my online friends my message I sent to him and they told me I went too personal, went too fast. Oops. Just shows how socially ret*d I am and how I don't know how to approach men so I was better off having men come to me first and I just follow along by answering their questions and if I wanted to know anything about them, I asked.
After all AS is easier on women, men can hit on us and they won't care about our quirks. I dunno if any men were hitting on me, I can't really tell the difference.
Then I met my bf when I went to a diaper forum and posted a message asking if any diaper men were in my area. We chatted for three weeks before we met up.

But you're a woman though, so your social inadequacy isn't like having AIDS

I think it depends on the person. I have heard people here complain about how the only friend they have is their significant other, so I think it is possible for some people to find a romantic partner without any previous success. I think that friendship and romantic relationships are different, though. For some people, I think sunshower is right, they might finally get friends and then realize they don't know how to flirt or something else that you don't need to know to get a friend.



Again. It depends on the person.



If I combine my AS with the conduciveness to social learning in the environment and influences I grew up in my estimate is that about 1 in every 10,000 people are in a worse situation than me to move up that ladder, my circumstances are strange. Considering this, I shouldn't feel so bad that I've only made it to the third rung. I really want that fourth rung, though. I have read books about socialization in an attempt to better myself at it. At the very least it gave me a general idea of how socialization is supposed to work, but I have body language problems that can't be fixed by reading a book. The problem with diversity is that because people are different it is unlikely that there is a solution that works for everyone.

I agree, and I think this a concept I haven't fully grasped yet. I am still trying to be good at everything.

To Space: Yes, I am only 20, but everything I have shared has come from my experiences. And I don't know much about the actual mechanics of relationships, but I do know a fair bit about making friends.

Discussion is open to everyone; rather than shooting down my illustration, why not be proper scientists and revise and expand it in different directions? If anyone wants to come up with another illustration showing their understanding of the whole thing, that would be great. I think illustrations are a good alternative to constant verbose explanations as a lot of autistic people think in pictures.

I don't have time to revise mine today, but why not do what GuyTypingOnComputer did and edit it, then people could post revised versions until we come up with something most of us can agree on?

Yes, I think reading books really helps. I have been lucky in my environment and conductiveness to social learning (even when I was diagnosed at 11 the psychologist said my AS was "mild"). I think anyone who makes it past the "first rung" (using my analogy) is doing well, because I don't think any of the "rungs" I mentioned come naturally to someone with AS, all have to be consciously learned. I think each step/"rung" in itself is an achievement, regardless of order (although some form a better foundation for others; I think it's a lot harder to be in a successful relationship if you haven't figured out how to maintain a successful friendship).

If you can manage a successful friendship then I personally believe you are getting the best bit of the relationship already - as a relationship is really a friendship with added benefits. So even if you never manage a relationship, once you can manage a successful friendship I think you can still lead a fairly fulfilled life.