Could you be loved?

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I LOL'd.

Correct - Dopamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

...Everybody's doin it, Toad. C'mon, just a little.


I disagree with you. I believe the tools are out there, and every one of your proposed unsuitable solutions represent a potential to help, in small ways. There's no single one-stop-solution, it's a combination of many things. Will just martial arts help the battered woman? No. Will just The Game help the single guy? No. But add more items on top that have potential, then you'll be more prone to seeing results. The more angles and sources you appreciate or undertake, the better. By dismissing it all out of hand, you're missing out on how it works: In numerous small steps.

Incidentally, that's the same pattern behind how so-called 'NT's' got their social skills. It was an accumulation of data-points spread over years of time, in many different circumstances. The difference, of course, is that they saw the social cues and patterns in their youth, when we weren't even looking. But, having lived so many years, we too are capable of picking up on those patterns, either by simply figuring how to notice them late, or by using some other system we develop to compensate. The same system that worked for them - numerous small steps - can work for us, now that we have some additional perspectives to leverage against the problem, which we lacked in our youth.

Add in the will to improve, and the right attitude, and the resultant growth & success is nearly unstoppable. Just don't try to look for all that growth and improvement in one place, or at one time.

The argument against that if is it really was so 'unstoppable', how come there are still so many people who have not achieving the promised results? Is it that they they don't have the will, or are "not trying hard enough" (an accusation often levelled at Aspies). Or is it that the 'methods' don't actually work for these people?

Things like 'attitude', 'will' etc are currently unmeasurable, cannot be proved. Seems to me that the purveyors of "self improvement", "personal growth", "law of attraction" use a tautological argument in absence of real evidence: if you don't get the results we promised, then your attitude must have been wrong. Or you haven't got enough will power. (does will power really exist? can we change what we're born with? this stuff is all so nebulous...)

If lasy years 'personal growth' actually worked, why is their an ever exploding mass of new ones on the market *this* year? Because they don't work at any rate higher than placebo and chance. Which is why you can't look for the 'improvement in one place, or at one time' - it is not causally related to the supposed 'inner efforts' we are making.

BTW I "dismissed all this out of hand" only *after* years of being a total "self-help-aholic"! Shelves filled with books and DVD's on this stuff, years spent in therapy, as I've already mentioned. Now I believe it only made me feel *worse*. Improvement for me came when I rejected the lot and realised I had no need or in fact any possibility of being *other* than I already was.

Most people I know are in happy committed relationships while I've never even had one I honestly doubt anyone could ever love me.

First of all, you're good at making friends with women. That's another one for the list!

Next - soooo many people think love strikes them like a bolt of lightning, and they'll fall in love with some person just out of nowhere. This *does* happen - it did to me a few times, all of which led to pretty crummy relationships when the temporary insanity wore off - but it's pretty rare. Most of us don't fall in love so much as gently drift into it and suddenly realise one day what it means.

A sexual relationship is very different from a love relationship. Many people end up confusing the two, which often coincide - but not always. Often we start with sex and the inherent intimacy leads to love.

PS: If you're not clicking with *any* women, perhaps there's a deeper reason behind that. It took me ages to figure out why I never met the right woman...

I can understand a lot of what you`re saying, and I´ve been there too. In addition, Aspies tend to dwell, obsess and get into "negative loops" about problems. Though it may be difficult, it actually helps to try to "lighten up" and not obsess so much- (though I do this too, so as I said, I understand the tendency). It may take a lot of self discipline, but if you can get away from that negative loop, often things seem to just slip into place. At least, that has been my experience.

First off, remember that there ARE other people like you. It´s not so "abnormal" to be inexperienced at your age. These people may be less "visible" than the people you see around you, because we live in a totally over-sexed, relationship-obsessive world at the moment. These people do exist though, and they aren´t even only Aspies. You are still young!

Also, the people you compare yourself to may not be as happy as they seem. The grass always appears greener on the other side. These people may be groping around desperately, trying to find meaning in their lives. Also, it´s kind of a "guy thing" to brag and show off about their experiences with women. But the reality may be quite different. Remember, quality is better than quantity.



Also, big John Daily fan here too!

Thanks for the tip! I actually tried to access it awhile back, in another European country, and it was not possible there. I guess I just assumed that applied to all of Europe. But I found out that I actually can get it in Germany. Yippee! That will keep me entertained for awhile.

These are 2 excellent points.



If I can get my courage up, I may try to show up at my local autism center- or go to an adult AS meeting- and mention the lecture/dating practice idea. I would like to try to implement a program like this. I would really like to do something to help adults with AS. Problem is, I´m shy about doing new "social" things like that that don´t have anything to do with my regular line of work. I´m not really sure how to start, or what to do. But who knows, one of these days I may just go do it.

^ It's kinda confusing, cause there's the Comedy Central site, and then there's Colbert Nation, and I think you can only get full episodes at Colbert Nation? I know you can get them at Colbert Nation for sure:

http://www.colbertnation.com/home

Also, the Daily Show is available online, too. I don't think I could live in Europe if I couldn't watch them (although I do think I'd rather be paid in euros right now). Enjoy!

You know, I think that's a wonderful idea. Can I make a suggestion? What would you think about talking to Aspies (and their partners) who are in successful relationships? You're clearly very analytical - I bet you could take that anecdotal evidence and identify the commonalities among the approaches. Maybe start with you and your partner....to kind of see how the "interview" process might work? I guess that approach reminds me of when I was brand new in my career, and I talked to a lot of people in my field about how they advanced in their careers....that kinda of "reaching back down the ladder" approach to help those who come after you?

Since we kind of already half-agree on some NT-oriented things that might help, I think you have the perfect skills to create an approach that's very Aspie-oriented. I may have a good idea or two (or not), but I'm not Aspie - so I can't bring that perspective. I think you'd be great at this. (I think @Sound has some bangin' ideas/experience in this area, too - perhaps a collaboration? "Bangin'" is probably not exactly the right adjective considering the context, but still )

Careful 'bout putting words in my mouth.
In the case of people with AS, it's not that I believe the primary issue is lack of effort or weak will. Generally, it seems that we're simply go about it wrong, approaching the problem in ways that we don't realize are not conducive to success. That leads to giving up, and why wouldn't it?

Hah, actually, that's a really good point - Without being able to comment on the fine details of what happened in any given exchange, or even many of the details about an individual's tendencies, I resort to simplified truisms. And that's simply bad logic, you are wholly correct.

But there's not really any way around that, without really knowing you, or others, without understanding the details of various interactions and situations, without seeing the full context of things said & done. Dealing with the specifics on social interactions over the internet, by it's nature, is at a detail-handicap.
This is further compounded by a similar lack of information from the scientific community. It's difficult to weigh and prove that which resists measure, and has more variables than we can count.

Btw, whats law of attraction?

Because:
1) It's not easy,
2) people leave and enter the dating game constantly, regardless of whether their issues are getting addressed or improved, and
3) it takes a lot of time to turn this stuff around.
You've done well in pointing out that much of my claims lack a solid backing, but do you have anything to back this claim?

One thing to think about: If someone consistently alters their behavior in any way, and they notice a change in trend one way or another to how people react, then this affirms the existence of some connection between 'inner effort' and other people's reactions. It's difficult to specify details any more than that, due to myriad reasons, but it is impossible to deny the strong possibility that something happened as a result of the 'inner effort'.
Therefore, labeling such a thing as a placebo is false: It clearly does not do nothing.

But is it just chance? Another difficult thing to quantify. I guess that's just up to the individual to measure, according to their years of experience.

Huh. That's a real shame. Never seen anyone come out of therapy and willing effort with a negative outcome in the long term. Sorry to hear that.
Perhaps your results can be taken as normal, or whats-to-be-expected. I can only speak for myself - This does not jive with my experience. Without knowing you, and having a very full context, there's really no way we could confirm or deny your stance or mine.

In the end, the main point you seem to be making is correct: That much of the advice of myself and others has to be taken from faith, and that, lacking faith, there is no reason to believe us. As an athiest, I find that distasteful. An unfortunate truth.

But here's another perspective: What can you offer that improves peoples emotional state, be-it through finding & keeping companionship successful, be-it through accepting a certain 'lot in life,' or be-it through some other means? What can you offer that's constructive in some way?

At least in our cases, some people come out of it feeling better about themselves, or their future, or being generally happier one way or another.

It's only my opinion, based on my viewpoint and my exprience. If I was you and had your experience, I'd have exactly the same opinion as you. But I'm not, so I don't. Life is funny like that!


Oh, I did have had a positive outcome! Only it came by a round-about realisation that every "how to" guide that I absorbed (with yet another long check list of items to remind myself of how I was failing) , led me to feel deeply that there was something wrong with me. Rejecting them all and realising i was exactly as I should be was positively liberating - overnight there was nothing wrong with me!

Also, there are plenty of scholarly criticisms of the current state of psycotherapy. And many people have posted here saying they found it ineffective.



If something works for somebody else, fine! I can only say if I've tried it and it didn't work for me. Just because you can't build a house yourself doesn't mean you can't spot a leaky roof! Not my job to fix other peoples lives. So the only thing I could suggest is that people don't expect 'quick fixes', 'life transformations', 'guaranteed results' as when it doesnt work out, you may well feel worse and more let down than before. Don't expect any outcome because the outcome probably won't be what you expect.

Very well said. I cannot possibly argue with that.

But on the other hand, the potential exists that one can successfully undertake a slow change of perspective & habit, whose end result is more success in relationship, and a happier life. In my experience, it's not an unrealistic hope.

But beyond that possibility.... well.... *shrug*

Well, okay I guess. That will be my item for the day, because honestly I'm too tired from a 3 hour rehearsal to do anything...

That's what happens to me in general. I don't feel any attraction for strangers. Try as I might, I just can't... the only thing that gets me wanting anything with a woman is getting to know her for a long period of time (and even then it's not guaranteed)...

That seems a little backwards to me... I always saw love as the reason for a relationship to exist, and once that is all underway and stabilized, that sex is something that adds on to it...

Yeah, there is a deeper reason: I'm inherently flawed when it comes to love. If I really have all those other positive things on that list going for me, then it's all going to waste...


I'm trying, but without any external affirmation to validate what I feel, trying to feel good about myself is so very hard...

I sure don't feel young... I feel like life has already passed me by and I'm just along for the ride now. Maybe if by some miracle I was able to land a relationship that somehow progressed to marriage (the former is highly improbable for me, the latter is practically impossible), then I would have a chance to actually live life, as opposed to just exist in it...

Yeah I know that being in relationships can be difficult... my last one was definitely very shaky leading up to the breakup... But even then, that lone relationship that I had was completely worth it, from start to finish... Yeah it was very stressful at times, but at least that stress told me that I was alive, and that life had meaning...

I was just gonna start bugging you for your item of the day! Thanks for posting.

@Toad, your running list of positive attributes/behaviors now includes:

I can fix computers,
I can sing
I can do artwork in photoshop (and I mean actual art, not just editing someone's face onto someone else's body)
I'm helping out in my church's youth program today
I just made a new photoshop artwork today
Thoughtful dream interpretation
Good at making friends with women

Among younger crowd, nowadays especially, physical attraction(and therefore the desire for sex) usually sets in before love. Supporting this, you wont know someone very well from the start, and thus don't have a basis for a love-derived relationship. But you can be attracted to them, physically, the instant you see them.
It's not so crazy that you got the idea that love precedes sex.... That's what we're generally taught prior to adulthood. However, this is extremely often not the case, and in many respects, counter-intuitive. While physical attraction is an immediate impulse, love is something that grows over time(minus infatuations derived from desperation).

False. You might hold some thoughts that undermine you, but that does not mean you're flawed. And furthermore, you're not inherently flawed, because that would denote that these things are immutable. In fact, they can be changed. You are changing already, and have been over the past few weeks, bit by bit.

Definately... Like being between a rock & a hard place.
This is why it's important that, relationship and social stuff aside, you should try and take on new things. If you do something that's clearly worthy of pride, then it progressively becomes a matter of fact and history, rather than a matter of perspective. Combining both - thought and deed - yields the best benefit.
So try and think about something you could get started on. A competition, a fitness program, learn something new, finish something that needs doing, take a small step toward a distant goal, etc. They're all small, but that's how it works. You rack up points week by week.

Do me a favor. Instead of saying 'if,' say 'when.' And remember, your 'dating prime' has not even started.

At some point within a few months, you're going to start figuring out the good things about living life for yourself, instead of others. You'll figure out how to do it with compassion for others, and you'll find that you seek to enrich others' lives because you enjoy it, and everyone will appreciate it, more-so than they appreciate you now.
It's the difference between doing something because you feel you must, versus doing something because it's your choice.

Toad, your problem is that you have no foundation underneath your desire for a woman, or more importantly, you might have a foundation, but not believe that you do.

For example, I have a great family life and a love of music (listening to and playing) that comes before any woman I'm to date. It may sound selfish, but when you place yourself and your interests higher than a potential dating partner (especially one you haven't even met yet or one you're in the beginning stages of a relationship with), you'll be less needy, and in turn, you'll feel less dependent on a woman, and more likely to attract a woman.

Think about it...you're a woman...and your boyfriend has literally no interests besides making you happy and doing anything to keep you. While that might sound romantic, it really isn't. I'm in no way saying to not be a good boyfriend, but part of being a good boyfriend is to give her space or show her that you have things that interest you other than her. Some women will be shallow and judge you based on not liking your interests or career choices, but most won't. Most are just attracted to the fact that the guy is doing something with his life and values himself as a human being.