Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

Post Reply New Topic

IT hurts.

I'm hoping I can bring some age and experience to the discussion. Since this is the net and I can remain semi-anonymous, I don't mind being somewhat blunt with my disclosures and my POVs (while of course being respectful to those here and keeping the discussion clean). This post will be long, so apologies ahead of time for that. I really think any guy who is single and frustrated should read this carefully, as I see a lot of my former problems and issues (now resolved) in this thread. I also hope that some of my somewhat sexist comments below will not be taken as mere sexism, but rather a blunt explanation (which I can expand upon, and which I have gathered from some of my readings on the topic of evolution and biology) of some of the mechanics of mating.

Background on me -- never been diagnosed with AS formally, might just have some AS tendencies, as does my father and middle sister. I have social anxiety issues (decreasing as I get older), some lack of finesse in my social skills, and have dealt with loneliness and many of the "nice guys finish last" POVs I've seen in this thread from single men. I've been happily (at least given what's happened) married for 11 years, almost straight out of college, and am in my early 30s. Here are my observations thus far in life --

When I was high school aged and into my early college years, I did feel that nice guys finished last. Girls/women seemed to go for the alpha types, who were of course A) socially competent, B) agressive, and C)usually mature for their age (meaning at age 16, they looked like they were in their 20s, and so on). I think this stage of life is very frustrating in general for young men, but especially hard for AS individuals, who often have social competency and anxiety issues to deal with, as well as a limited network to meet people. No one wants to settle for someone they are not attracted to, so many of the very obvious candidates who approach guys in this situation (girls can smell desperation, and there are always opportunists) get turned down for not meeting the guy's tastes, while the girls the guy really wants turn him down, creating a feeling that you'll never get what you want, and that you're doomed to settle. I certainly felt like this, despite somehow landing a GF late in high school who met my standards -- there was always a lot of anxiety about the relationship, and when I ended it, I went another 3 years without a GF or meaningful date, despite lots of female friends -- more on this later.

Looking back, I see that I was my main problem, and while it was easy to blame boogeymen like the Alphas, society, culture, or other strawmen for me not getting dates, the main problems were A) I was not meeting enough women, period, and obsessing on the few I met, B) I was letting my social anxiety stop me from taking advantage of opportunities when they came up, and C) My lack of social competency caused me to miss semi-obvious signals from women who were flirting.

For A) -- not meeting enough women -- Meeting "the one" or even just "one" is a crap shoot, it's all about numbers. You have to figure, out of 100 women, maybe 10 will like you, if you're lucky, and probably less than that will actually be "right" for you (meaning compatible with your tastes, personality, and worldview). If you're only meeting 5 new women a year, and obsessing on 1 or 2 out of that 5, odds are you are going to be disappointed. You have to increase the sample size. You need to get out, join groups, make an effort (painful as it is) to meet new people and be yourself. I guarantee you will find someone you like, and with facebook and other social networking sites, it's easier than ever. I had a coworker, divorced with kids, in his 30s with very serious AS issues and still was able to date 18 y/o girls exclusively, per his tastes. If he can be that picky, have serious AS issues, and still do that, you can too. Don't just rely on your classroom or workplace to find women, as those usually have a disincentive to dating you (hard to get away if things turn sour), and they are essentially a captive audience, meanining even if they want to get away from you, they can't, and they probably have to talk to you as a part of everyday business or classwork. If you leave the job or class and they're still making an effort to talk to you, that's another story, and a good sign.

For B) -- Watching Alphas at work, you can feel like you either have to embrace popular culture and tastes, or wither away. MTV and other media outlets sell a lifestyle that many of us reject because it doesn't fit our personality or world view -- and there's nothing wrong with that. While some change is good, and it's definitely good to try new things and get a bit out of your comfort zone, you shouldn't be doing anything that goes so far against your grain that you hate yourself, or are wreaked with anxiety. No girl/woman is worth that, and she wouldn't want you to do that for her if she really cared about you. Some things were not meant to be, and there's someone for every lifestyle, believe me.

For C) -- This I think is one of the main problems for young men, but especially young men who are inexperienced and/or socially incompetent. We think women think like men do, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Men are about straightforward communication, and to some of us, we think a woman should be blunt about liking us or not (just as guys are), but almost no women are, unless they are desperate, users, or maybe insane. A woman is going to drop very subtle hints, and usually go no farther, because culturally and biologically there are reasons not to be blunt -- she doesn't have to (women are very sought after in general, though not always by the guys she wants), and culturally, it is still looked down upon to be too aggressive in choosing a guy. If you find a girl always going out of her way to talk to you, that's a good sign she might be interested, even if she has a BF. If she laughs at your jokes (even the dumb ones), always smiles at you, tries to talk to you, asks you about your life, it's a good sign she likes you. However, beware of the users (and single, desperate guys are always vulnerable to them) -- if she's only talking to you when she wants something -- notes, a recommendation, the answer to something, etc., she's not interested, you are just a means to an end, and you're being used. Don't consider this person as a candidate for dating, and maybe not even as a friend.

I'd also like to point out RE: above that really, women choose the men they want, and not the other way around. While it is technically possible for some very skilled individuals to win over someone who wasn't interested, or for the mere exposure effect (look that up in Wikipedia) to have it's impact, women are already innundated with far too many offers, and if a woman doesn't show interest after multiple exposures to you, it's a good guess that at that point she's not going to be a candidate for dating, and that you should move on. This means that it does you no good to obsess about that perfect woman who is not into you. However, the caveat to this is that while you should not put up with being used, it's perfectly fine to be friends with a woman who has a BF -- Keep in contact (if she stays in contact with you), and keep on her radar, because when that BF is gone, you might be the person she moves on to.

Now, here's the other thing -- women's tastes in men change around the 25 y/o mark, and it has to do with biology, emotional maturity, and our life milestones. Up until around 25 (plus or minus a few years), a lot of women do tend to disproportionately go for the alpha guys, the aggressive, jerk, or mature guys who seem to have everything going on. This is because at that age, pretty much no one really has assets or buying power, so women go for guys who look like older men, or who act like them. Pre-Modern civilization, this would be the time at which many girls or women would be at their reproductive peak, so they are looking (subconsciously) for optimal mating partners -- this is why alpha guys win, they are models of physical and social fitness. By the time they hit 25, men their age are starting to come into their own career-wise, and a lot of the alphas are prematurely showing their age, having peaked early. Hair is falling out, they may not be achieving as much, and meanwhile their less-developed counterparts are catching up and blooming. At this point, most women switch from being about physical characteristics to a more optimal and long-sighted strategy, finding a guy who has a good future. This is where you come in, because if you're anything like most AS folks, you've been fairly decent in school, and may very well have a decent-paying career. You also may be more trusthworthy, as opposed to the alpha guy, who played the field and treated her like dirt because he was spoiled by so much opportunity. In addition, if that guy ever got a STD, his fertility might be wrecked as a result.

If you take nothing else away from my whole spiel, take this one point -- men gain value with age, while women peak in value at around 30, and very quickly lose a lot of their leverage. In your 20s you will find yourself suddenly much more popular with women, and the closer to 30 a woman is, the more desperate she will become to marry anyone decent (by her standards), and get to having children before her fertility fades (this is assuming the woman has the fairly standard goal of starting a family). The older you get, the more opportunity will come your way dating-wise, even as you get into your 50s. This I think is the ultimate revenge for the neglected and lonely single guy who perseveres -- just make sure not to settle for anyone less than the perfect person if you do decide to marry early.

I use myself as a case in point -- I got married early, because I found literally the perfect person. I know this because I dumped her once, and cheated on her once (and got caught and forgiven), and she still won out in terms of who I wanted to spend my life with. I've seen directly how men get more valuable as they get older, and if they are involved already -- I've spent the past 11 years fending off women I know, something I as a lonely young man (in the middle of a 3 year dry streak) would have found amazing. I also look back now and see that even during my loneliest period, I was missing easy and desireable candidates for dating due to my own insecurities, anxieties, and ignorance. Don't let that be you, and don't judge the future based on what's going on now with your life -- things will change.

Get some hobbies, join some groups, work out, and stop obsessing about getting a GF. You'll be happier, you will relax, women will see you as not tense, not anxious, fit, and a good candidate. There is a big "late bloomer" component to dating, and it's unfair to judge yourself by the alpha male/"most popular guy in school"standard. You also should have a female relative or platonic female friend judge your wardrobe and grooming habits -- take her advice, and get a 2nd opinion if needed. This will work much better than trying to be Alpha or trying to change your personality.

Anyway, this is just my POV and 2 cents on the whole thing, and basically just a brain dump of what I've learned in my lifetime about dating and getting a GF. I'm open to responding via PM for anyone who wants to take this off-line and not discuss it here in public, and will keep any conversations confidential.

Women love guys who act like a**holes a lot. Nothing comes from being nice unless you are looking to be the push-over friend a girl is looking for. When your parents and your teachers told you that being nice to girls would make them more comfortable and attracted to you, they lied to you. Girls don't want to have things easy ever, they want the most difficult conflict they can find so they have something to complain ABOUT. Nobody is asking you to like it, but if you want a girlfriend, either beat somebody up in front of a group of girls or go work out. Otherwise you will be dumped into the friend zone.

^And you, Mak, are an example of how the concept he's citing is inaccurate. So please stick around.