What is "creepy"?
spongy
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02 Aug 2012, 6:23 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach
There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then
except that she didn't say that:
Quote:
I go hiking regularly. Guess what, I give a hard look at every single guy who walks by me and if he says "hi" I DO NOT RESPOND.
looking at people cautiously is not labeling them as creeps. there is a big distinction between those two ideas.
she took one single situation where she is generally cautious and said that IF people behave a certain way, then she reacts to it. there is no logical way to draw the conclusion that she labels ALL men as creeps from that situation.
it's like there is a chasm between what people are saying an d the conclusions that other members are drawing.
If we stick to what has been written on every post there isnt a post that said that she hates all men.
There are a few posts explaining her whats wrong with her approach(and theres one suggesting she has a mental disorder which happens to be treated as a personal attack usually) but I dont see any post saying that she hates all men
MXH takes his personal experience when it comes to giving advice but he doesnt say that it applies to her, he just mentions it because its a common mistake a lot of people do when they go through a traumatic experience such as rape for example
02 Aug 2012, 6:23 pm
mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.
Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.
I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.
so, if i take this at face value, can you see how this is parallel to labeling someone a "slut"? you defended your right to label people like that, yet you do not think that people should be labeled as "creeps". both of them are negative subjective assessments of other people, based on limited information.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "creepy" is a good way to communicate a warning or a concern to another party if i would believe that their safety is at risk.
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02 Aug 2012, 6:25 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach
Can you point me to where any member said that women ought not to behave in a cautious manner? Some members are deciding some male members believe that all women must be instantly trusting of all men, regardless of the circumstances, because those male members have pointed out that some men get labelled "creeps" unfairly.
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If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
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02 Aug 2012, 6:29 pm
mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach
Can you point me to where any member said that women ought not to behave in a cautious manner? Some members are deciding some male members believe that all women must be instantly trusting of all men, regardless of the circumstances, because those male members have pointed out that some men get labelled "creeps" unfairly.
no, they absolutely agree that women should behave cautiously. but given examples of women behaving cautiously, some members said that their caution equalled labelling all men as creepy. so they are encouraged to behave cautiously in theory but not in practice
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02 Aug 2012, 6:37 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.
Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.
I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.
so, if i take this at face value, can you see how this is parallel to labeling someone a "slut"? you defended your right to label people like that, yet you do not think that people should be labeled as "creeps". both of them are negative subjective assessments of other people, based on limited information.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "creepy" is a good way to communicate a warning or a concern to another party if i would believe that their safety is at risk.
The difference is that I am applying labels to people I actually know and who have displayed the behavior I am describing. May I point out again that I have no problem with calling people creepy who have actually done something to deserve that label. I take issue with the "creep" label is when it is applied to guys who've done nothing more than say "hello," or to guys who politely try to approach women in places where it is generally recognized and accepted that doing so is socially acceptable.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "skanky" is a good way to communicate to another party if i know that the person behaves in a sexually indiscriminate way.
Oh dear god please, let's not start up that argument again.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
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02 Aug 2012, 6:47 pm
mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.
Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.
I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.
so, if i take this at face value, can you see how this is parallel to labeling someone a "slut"? you defended your right to label people like that, yet you do not think that people should be labeled as "creeps". both of them are negative subjective assessments of other people, based on limited information.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "creepy" is a good way to communicate a warning or a concern to another party if i would believe that their safety is at risk.
The difference is that I am applying labels to people I actually know and who have displayed the behavior I am describing. May I point out again that I have no problem with calling people creepy who have actually done something to deserve that label. I take issue with the "creep" label is when it is applied to guys who've done nothing more than say "hello," or to guys who politely try to approach women in places where it is generally recognized and accepted that doing so is socially acceptable.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "skanky" is a good way to communicate to another party if i know that the person behaves in a sexually indiscriminate way.
Oh dear god please, let's not start up that argument again.
But you do want to police what deserves the label based on your personal standards and boundaries
which is the thing that's wrong with what you're saying
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MXH
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02 Aug 2012, 6:53 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.
Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.
I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.
so, if i take this at face value, can you see how this is parallel to labeling someone a "slut"? you defended your right to label people like that, yet you do not think that people should be labeled as "creeps". both of them are negative subjective assessments of other people, based on limited information.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "creepy" is a good way to communicate a warning or a concern to another party if i would believe that their safety is at risk.
The difference is that I am applying labels to people I actually know and who have displayed the behavior I am describing. May I point out again that I have no problem with calling people creepy who have actually done something to deserve that label. I take issue with the "creep" label is when it is applied to guys who've done nothing more than say "hello," or to guys who politely try to approach women in places where it is generally recognized and accepted that doing so is socially acceptable.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "skanky" is a good way to communicate to another party if i know that the person behaves in a sexually indiscriminate way.
Oh dear god please, let's not start up that argument again.
But you do want to police what deserves the label based on your personal standards and boundaries
which is the thing that's wrong with what you're saying
No. Hes saying to put the lable on someone that deserves it for doing something actually negative. If a guy grabs your boobs in a club its fine to call him creepy. Hell a slap is a better thing than creepy. But for simply talking to you in a way thats not even negative? Id understand if a guy had told you "hey sweetie, what time do those legs open. Whats the entrance fee?" that he deserves the creepy label. But saying that you would look pretty if you smiled, saying a polite hi when walking past, etc are not worthy of being called creepy. It makes you to be rude. And if you do it solely because they are male then you're not just rude but also shows that you dont respect that person for being gender. And yet you dare turn around and demand that person respect you because of your gender.
02 Aug 2012, 6:55 pm
spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach
There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then
except that she didn't say that:
Quote:
I go hiking regularly. Guess what, I give a hard look at every single guy who walks by me and if he says "hi" I DO NOT RESPOND.
looking at people cautiously is not labeling them as creeps. there is a big distinction between those two ideas.
she took one single situation where she is generally cautious and said that IF people behave a certain way, then she reacts to it. there is no logical way to draw the conclusion that she labels ALL men as creeps from that situation.
it's like there is a chasm between what people are saying an d the conclusions that other members are drawing.
If we stick to what has been written on every post there isnt a post that said that she hates all men.
There are a few posts explaining her whats wrong with her approach(and theres one suggesting she has a mental disorder which happens to be treated as a personal attack usually) but I dont see any post saying that she hates all men
MXH takes his personal experience when it comes to giving advice but he doesnt say that it applies to her, he just mentions it because its a common mistake a lot of people do when they go through a traumatic experience such as rape for example
I think it's worthwhile to note that the poster in question actually has been victimized and has trauma. This isn't a hypothetical for them. So if they're avoiding men it could be that they are a ptsd trigger which isn't something that can be "logic'd" away. It's not a "common mistake" it's a reaction to violent trauma. Veterans having issues with loud booming noises is not a "common mistake".
Yeah MXH has accused people of mental disorders, called me a b***h 3 times (just in this thread), and posted sarcastic gifs
seems like the rules are off for this thread if a mod is going to defend his posts
_________________
If your success is defined as being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference, then we don?t want successful leaders. We want great leaders- who are unbought, unbound, unafraid, and unintimidated to tell the truth.
02 Aug 2012, 7:01 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
But you do want to police what deserves the label based on your personal standards and boundaries
which is the thing that's wrong with what you're saying
which is the thing that's wrong with what you're saying
Not based on my personal standards and boundaries but, rather, based on the standards and boundaries that are generally agreed upon by society as a whole. Saying "hello" to a stranger is generally accepted as simple politeness, yet I've heard men being called creeps for that. Bars are generally accepted as not just places to drink, but places to socialize as well, and yet I've heard guys called creeps for offering to buy a woman a drink.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
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MXH
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Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,057
Location: Here i stand and face the rain
02 Aug 2012, 7:01 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I think it's worthwhile to note that the poster in question actually has been victimized and has trauma. This isn't a hypothetical for them. So if they're avoiding men it could be that they are a ptsd trigger which isn't something that can be "logic'd" away. It's not a "common mistake" it's a reaction to violent trauma. Veterans having issues with loud booming noises is not a "common mistake".
Yeah MXH has accused people of mental disorders, called me a b***h 3 times (just in this thread), and posted sarcastic gifs
seems like the rules are off for this thread if a mod is going to defend his posts
Which is why me and another member recomended she get therapy. And not to continue being rude.
you're not doing ay better missy. Degrading an entire gender for having done nothing wrong yet expecting the oposite in return is something very special. Dont worry, the rules were rather off when you attacked me and a mod said it was ok because you worded it in the right way.
02 Aug 2012, 7:01 pm
mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"
See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.
Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.
I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.
so, if i take this at face value, can you see how this is parallel to labeling someone a "slut"? you defended your right to label people like that, yet you do not think that people should be labeled as "creeps". both of them are negative subjective assessments of other people, based on limited information.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "creepy" is a good way to communicate a warning or a concern to another party if i would believe that their safety is at risk.
The difference is that I am applying labels to people I actually know and who have displayed the behavior I am describing. May I point out again that I have no problem with calling people creepy who have actually done something to deserve that label. I take issue with the "creep" label is when it is applied to guys who've done nothing more than say "hello," or to guys who politely try to approach women in places where it is generally recognized and accepted that doing so is socially acceptable.
i do agree that labels attached to a PERSON are seldom helpful. but i don't see a way of getting around the fact that calling someone's BEHAVIOUR "skanky" is a good way to communicate to another party if i know that the person behaves in a sexually indiscriminate way.
Oh dear god please, let's not start up that argument again.
if i were to use that label (unlikely, but for the sake of argument), then i would have already used my own stringent guidelines for who gets to be called creepy. it isn't *your* decision as to who deserves to get called creepy in *my* life.
it's easy for you to say that someone could deserve a label under certain circumstances, but you are not actually the social arbiter in someone else's life. you can't be fully cognizant of the context and experiences and behaviours and thoughts and feelings involved in the situation, so you're not equipped to decide whether a label should be used in that instance. there isn't an objective line that can be drawn as to what is truly "creepy"; it is entirely subjective.
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02 Aug 2012, 7:05 pm
Quote:
I think it's worthwhile to note that the poster in question actually has been victimized and has trauma. This isn't a hypothetical for them. So if they're avoiding men it could be that they are a ptsd trigger which isn't something that can be "logic'd" away. It's not a "common mistake" it's a reaction to violent trauma. Veterans having issues with loud booming noises is not a "common mistake".
and?
She's not the only person out there with trauma in her past.
Just because there are events in her past that may make her behavior more understandable, that does not mean that what she is doing is the right thing to do.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
MXH
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Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,057
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02 Aug 2012, 7:07 pm
mds_02 wrote:
Quote:
I think it's worthwhile to note that the poster in question actually has been victimized and has trauma. This isn't a hypothetical for them. So if they're avoiding men it could be that they are a ptsd trigger which isn't something that can be "logic'd" away. It's not a "common mistake" it's a reaction to violent trauma. Veterans having issues with loud booming noises is not a "common mistake".
and?
She's not the only person out there with trauma in her past.
Just because there are events in her past that may make her behavior more understandable, that does not mean that what she is doing is the right thing to do.
exactly. Considering DWH has been condescending and has labeled men as misogynists because of the things women had done to them.
02 Aug 2012, 7:09 pm
mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
But you do want to police what deserves the label based on your personal standards and boundaries
which is the thing that's wrong with what you're saying
which is the thing that's wrong with what you're saying
Not based on my personal standards and boundaries but, rather, based on the standards and boundaries that are generally agreed upon by society as a whole. Saying "hello" to a stranger is generally accepted as simple politeness, yet I've heard men being called creeps for that. Bars are generally accepted as not just places to drink, but places to socialize as well, and yet I've heard guys called creeps for offering to buy a woman a drink.
it isn't really agreed upon, though. even in this thread people cannot agree what behaviour is considered creepy, so your implication that there is a universal guideline is false.
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