Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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Yeah, a guy like me who would treat them like a queen even though I have no social ability and physically am to be honest not that far from dead they'd rather have a good looking socially adept guy who treats them like crap.

There are no good female role models out there these days. What do we have? Paris Hilton? Lady Gaga? Sex and the City? With such vapid entertainment, it's no wonder how people turn out the way they do. No individuality, something is considered "normal" or "mainstream", and people just fall right into it or else they are labeled "weird".

Narcissism is a huge problem that seems to be growing every day. The internet age of blogs and twitter is causing a huge explosion. Everyone seems to think their life is so exciting that everyone else wants to know the intricate (and mundane) details of their day-to-day lives. Sometimes I think people intentionally behave differently now just so they have something to update their blogs/twitters with. They need drama in their lives.

Who's Lady Gaga?

Whats strange about this is that my best friends ex-wife said near enough exactly the same thing. Im not sure if it's about them being spoilt though more so being brought up with the mentality of thinking theyre better then everyone else.

I've seen it over here as well, though British Media is so heavily influenced by America it then influences British women to act exactly the same.

I think it may be the function of a few things:

1) There's been a trend over the past 15 years or so of women in the developed English-speaking world -- America, Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand - acting out certain cultural norms that were once reserved for men: Lad Culture, Girls Gone Wild and countless other examples of actively taking control of their sexuality as forms of power. Since sex and sexuality is the one realm where women have total control, it makes sense that women would use that power as a means to enact their dominance over men. It's a look, don't touch mentality that has taken hold in almost every aspect of the West nowadays and a lot of women use that approach as a way to do what men have done for years...

2) ... which is essentially flaunting their power in rejecting men in a equally potent manner in which men reject women. Men pride themselves on their "personality" being a main attractant for women, whereas men are highly visual and tend to accept/reject women on the basis of their "looks" more often than not. Women who are highly superficial and judgmental (dare I say, a lot of people, men and women alike) will reject a man for a wider variety of reasons nowadays, for it is socially acceptable for a woman to do so. It hurts men more profoundly if rejection is on the basis of personality more than looks, because men tend to think our looks are secondary to our attractiveness in a traditional sense. Oddly enough, the social circumstances a lot of women found them in previous generations -- needing stellar looks to land and maintain a husband, due to the inability of women to have social mobility pre-feminism -- are now applying to men. Men are being given tacit instructions that, to women, looks definitely matter a lot more and you had best fit a certain social archetype to be acceptable to her as a prospective partner. The logic now goes: since men have done it for decades, why not women too?

Bear in mind: I don't think this is a good thing. I think it shows a remarkably unsophisticated interpretation of what feminism/equality means if women are going to adopt the same boorish tendencies that men have for generations. I'd have hoped most women would have seen how stupid the traditional masculine-dominant approach was and is, and have tried to be better for it. But that hasn't happened in the Anglo-American-English sphere of the world.

I know, where I live in Canada, this ideology is very strong. Women here, where I live, are immensely preoccupied with money, status and materialism when it comes to men. And, incredibly, many women want it both ways: they want a guy to live up to a near-unattainable standard of living and also have all the trappings of traditional womanhood. You might call this feminism in some respects, but it has given rise to a new kind of straight male behaviour that is borderline hostile and vaguely misogynist -- the Guyland Syndrome, in which men won't grow up and will chase around numerous "conquests" without any sense of emotional commitment or investment in a woman. A kind of gender one-up-manship. After all, why should a man put his time, effort and money into a woman who doesn't care anyway about you as a person, but only what you can do for her? Sound familiar?

Again, this is not a law of nature. I don't believe this state of affairs is good. Hostile, binary gender relations is never healthy. But it makes sense, considering how most people in my generation (I'm 31) and younger have been beaten over the head by the media that self-validation is the only thing that really matters. All you have to do is look at Sex and the City or any legion of male-themed sitcoms to see this at work. High capitalism (especially the highly aggressive, British-American-Canadian-Australian variety) thrives on focusing on the Self first and foremost -- it's been extended to the realm of gender relations, too.

The important thing to bear in mind is that this is only one way of thinking. It's an ideological mindset. It preys on people's insecurities and fears above all else. The trick is to not let yourself get sucked into the mindset.

If you're a nice guy or girl, just trying to make it, don't go to a nightclub or a mainstream social gathering to find someone. Those places -- especially clubs -- are breeding grounds for superficial idiocy of both genders.

And when it comes to those "mean girls" -- well, truth be told, some of them will be lucky enough to find a guy who is hot, wealthy and lets her walk all over him with her needs. That's fine for her (although crappy for him). But really, you have to pity the vast majority of women who aren't that hot, aren't that special or aren't that great who think this way. They're going to wake up one day and realize, just as many superficial men have over time, that their windows of opportunity have passed them by because he didn't drive a fancy car or he wasn't perfectly buff.

Their loss.

I would have asked the same thing a few weeks ago. Apparently she's a new big pop star. My latest issue of Rolling Stone has her on the cover. Believe me, nothing worth checking out if you don't know who she is.

NauticalCA you are spot on, and it depresses me, when I see that sort of attitudes of many of the young women at my church

This may sound harsh but after reading these threads. I think some of you are right on cue with the media in which it tries to portray women in a femenist view....and I don't agree with it. In fact, I don't think it really does potray a woman's true sexuality, not this woman at least. There seems to be this war with genders on who should be masculine and who should be submissive yet no acceptions or concepts of just how complex sexuality is in the first place. I would do more research than make idol assumptions that "women" in the west are just cocky and have learned to be that way because of a femenist movement. I see a lot of cocky men in the west as well but I guess it would all be on the assumption or impression that a western man is use to having it his way.

The femenist movements is a little more complex than that. Some I agree with since women really didn't have some of the same rights as men in a time where it was a man's world. Now, it's far more removed and different. I too don't agree with the way women potray women in the media when it comes to the liberty of their sexaulty. It is just as blunt and unrealistic as many of the opinions in how men percieve women on this forum.

I think you all forget that a woman really does have a mind of her own and culture may play a part but is not the very nature in a woman's head of why she's attracted to many aspects in men. You all act like women only want money, power, status, or looks. These are far too general and are true in some cases. I could see non western women especially marrying a man for money and status given into account the culture she's living in where a woman doesn't make much...or allowed to work for that matter.

There's freedom and so many different variables given that seem to be ignored here which is why I'm resigning from this love and dating forum. Many good guys here but it's too frustrating to be of the minority here and try express the trouble in being single as a female without a guy judging me on how "you women" have it lucky since guys only go after looks. Not been very true in some of my past relations.

And for the record, I also think the definition of nice guys and jerks is also too broad. I feel like a broken record everytime I ask this question and it only meaning a guy who treats a woman like crap. Some members have termed it as a guy who's introverted. I would think it be just as frustrating as for a female being introverted. Yet again, there would be many variables and factors on both sides of the coin. Too many "nice" guys think women are lucky only to get laid if they look good. And too many "nice guys" express the idea that a woman who isn't good looking has her self to blame...that's at least the insinuation I get anyway.

Again, I will say there have been very few but supportive guys here. I just don't think it's a very supportive site to everyone that's single though and I would have ask what it means to treat a woman like a queen? I would hate the sound of a woman saying she treats her husband like a king unless he deserved it. I think it goes with the old saying, you teach people how to treat you....though I don't always think the victim should be blamed. There are many good liars and people on the sociopathic spectrum /slight sarcasm. Also given the background in how that person was brought up.

Anyway, MissConstrue signing off. If anyone wants to chat with me on messenger or PM, about these issues that're hard to express here, I don't mind. Be great if people were more supportive instead of stabbing eachother in the gut. I just think this forum is too narrow in the views and other aspects that have either been skipped or not mentioned here especially in the aspects of females. I think I'm also getting a little sick of the prejudices people seem to have here as well...been trying not to let it get to me including this view people here have that if you were in a relationship of some sort or had sex then you have nothing to whine about. Give me a break, I would hope people who come here learn better than that! Unless one wants it only to satisfy the "peking" order...that's not hard, it just takes experience and people who have knoweledge. Nothing wrong with that. But if we're talking about wanting to be in an actual relationship....then I think these issues are like I said far more complex especially for some of us with aspergers and other social developmental disorders. Very frustrating...I know. But I've heard some good stories over at other sites....I think people think it's all over when they're no longer "youthful". I'm slowly but surely learning from older aspies.

Sorry for the rambling <aspie rant>

Good day ladies and gents and Tim_Tex and Toad, I hope you really do find a woman out there. You guys are great, you just need to stop listening to all the negative stuff and stop being hard on yourselves. I think it's starts from loving yourself first and then exploring a world that's hard for many of us to grapple full of rejection, pain, and then moving on.

Being nice ain't the problem... it's being broke or visually unappealing and not being deceptive enough make 'em think you are the life of the party.

NauticalCA, can I ask how old you are?

The reason I ask is that I've seen a lot of doom and gloom posts from folks in their very early 20s, based on their experiences as teens and college students. If you read my original post many pages back (I think from December) or have read my opinions on this board about the topic, you'll see that my observation is that things change very quickly for men and women in their late 20s/early 30s.

As I approached the age of 26 (and I'm proud I've made it this far), my life has progressed from doom and gloom to doom and gloom with lots of fancy big words. I'm reading Nietzsche now, and this guy's pretty scary.

Anyway, in the last page or two I made some fearful remarks about women and their possible attitude in general to the suffering of less attractive men. Based on how good you women have otherwise been to me, I've decided to try to talk to you more and stay in touch with you, in the hope that I won't lose my mind and come to believe you're cheering at my torment.

On the positive side of this issue, I've noticed that women don't seem to show me the attitudes men have often attributed to them. I occasionally wonder if men who say women hate 'nice guys' are just lying to create resentment and fear when, in fact, women aren't all that bad.

I'll go back to my deeds, now -- but don't think I'm rewarding you for making me suffer!

billsmithglendale, I'm 31. I don't think what I wrote was being especially doom and gloom. I was just describing some sociological trends that I've observed over the years (this is part of my profession). It's exclusively macro-level observations, for it's impossible to apply these ideas to everyone.

In terms of my own personal experience, I've dated a number of women over the years, and I can honestly say that there's been good and bad experiences along the way. Some women never grow up while others do. I've experienced a whole gamut of emotions and feelings when it comes to women.

That doesn't change, however, that some of those observations may be correct I made.

billsmithglendale, I took a look at your post from before. Good stuff generally in terms of one-on-one and I've experienced much of what you described there.

Thing is, my observations are reflecting a few researched trends insofar as that yes, while women do tend to shift in values towards men over time, one very modern trend has been the rise of women acting out certain roles once exclusively dominated by men. The shift in incomes, assets and personal value as a biological and evolutionary end goal from men to women has changed the rules of the game. Women are far more selective now than they ever were before. This isn't a cynical comment, it's just reality: women for many under the age of 40 are quickly becoming the bread-winners. It begs the question: what kind of a man do these women want more often? It's not an easy question to answer, but it does complicate the matter more for men.

This is as cynical a comment as I may have made before, if not more so. It's also somewhat inaccurate. Men do get better with age in some respects, but again, this scenario only works if a man has long-term value beyond his looks and status. What if he doesn't? What if there's more to it than just that, i.e. lower incomes, lower education, et al? And really, I know a lot of women in their 30s and 40s who are forgoing children altogether on the premise that they want to "live it up" and are thus far more selective about men they are with.

I think where we're disagreeing here has more to do with the convergence of biology and sociology. I don't think what you say is wrong, but as a guy in his early 30s whom has had a variety of experiences with women, I'm not sure you can make many micro-level assumptions about women beyond a case-by-case basis. You can, however, describe broader trends, which I think incorporates some of what you say and some of what I say too.

For sure it's a cynical comment, but true in most cases, assuming you are advancing with your age in terms of income and assets. If you are not , you have bigger problems than not having a woman -- you're not planning for your future. (I don't mean you specifically, btw, but the generic "you.") A guy with low education and poor job prospects is of course going to suffer in his love life in terms of opportunities -- no disputing that. In the case of that guy, he needs to get his priorities in order.

The women who forgo children are in the minority, and do you really want them? Most people aim to start a family at some point, some for practical reasons, like having someone to take care of you when you are old, and some for more personal reasons, like wanting to pass on your genes. The call of genetics is pretty strong, and I've seen a lot of women shift gears rapidly from "I'll never have kids" to "Give me kids NOW!! !! !"

I for sure agree with you that sociology can effect change -- women want to have a career, get married later, have kids later, etc. Many Western women can barely cook now, which is why I recommend marrying a non-Western foreigner if you are looking for a traditional 50s-era family and good home cooking. However, there's going to be a rebalancing -- right now women want to eat their cake and have it too (i.e. career and kids), but we're seeing now that it's pretty hard to do both. On top of that, what kind of burden is it to companies and coworkers when women take 4 month child leaves and expect to come back to work as if nothing had changed? What kind of life do our children have if they are reared in day care for most of their lives? Just like the resurgence of the religious right in the past 15 years, we will probably also see a resurgence of the cultural right. History goes in waves, and the pendulum swings in both directions.

I think in the end, you are going to see a swing back to the family structure that we had for most the existence of humanity -- Women working in limited roles if they want to have a family. It's very hard to buck genetics and biology. And hormones kicking in still make most women want to have kids. I really don't feel like the women in their 30s and 40s who are unmarried are really that enticing anyways -- why not go for someone in their 20s? It's a lot easier for an older guy to date a younger woman than vice versa.

As a single man who is 30 or older, with a decent job and a savings account (and a 401k), the world is your plum. Go take a bite

.....This is the keystone, the catalyst to my comprehension of pairings.

I am fully able to emote anything, socially. Be it self-confidence, arrogance, etc(My ethical limits won't let me go overboard with that one though) And I am perfectly capable of fully comprehending any woman. What she means, and, more importantly, how she THINKS(!).

One thing I have NOT been able to perfect is what to emulate, no...What to BE. What kind of man. So far it's been honest, calm, strong and caring. Fantasy fans would say Paladin. I'd say Metrosexual(A man able to show emotion, but tends to overdo it, for the uninitiated) It MIGHT just help if I add some of my more "misschievous" impulses to the mix. Act out, be...well still honest, but..blunt honest. : ) Humour I got plenty, and I can even pull off telling a girl she doesn't look good (!). Adding more of that bluntness, to-thye-point-ness, that sadism, that..agh screw it: That Hyena vibe, miiight just do the trick for me. And I look awesome(Jack Black Captivating/Misschievous, and thinner), and tend to charm anyone I talk to into smiling and complimenting. And I can handle money.

And FYI, I'd love to date the "american princess" archetype for some time, only to have her phreak out and selfdestruct. Too bad I live in a country of nihilist, realist teen girls who are actually quite happy with either their Eternal Boyfriend or Sexkitten lifestyle. Heh. All or nothing, for me.

Seeing what you have all said, it seems that thing MIGHT get better by the late-20s, early 30's. However, I how many that will be too late for. I know that, if I am still this way in 6 years, I will have let my angry, aggressive, viscious side will have become dominant. Already, it is comes out at times of moderate stress. How many of us will have despaired for so long that we have completely given up by then, or become misogynistic because of being passed over a million times? Things may get better for the average person at that age, but for us, it may be too late at that point.

Unrelated, I think I found the anthem for the Friend Zone.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TGiqef2Fp0[/youtube]