This woman is bending my mind into a pretzel!

Post Reply New Topic

Nah, it really depends where you live. I was having sex with my GF at 17 and going out and doing things at night (past legal curfew, which no one cared about anyways), and I was considered a late bloomer compared to the popular kids. The fact is that the OP already mentioned that this girl does contact other people of her own volition, but not him. His complaint wasn't just about not going out with this girl, but that she seemed to take him for granted and never call him first. Unless the OP lives in Pashtun-controlled Afghanistan/Pakistan, the Middle East, or some other very conservative part of the world (like Nebraska ), it's not abnormal for someone near adult age or legally an adult to expect some adult behavior and maybe a date out of their opposite-gender peers.

Also -- if anything, her low age just makes me even more certain that she is taking advantage of the gender economics of low female affection supply and high male demand/naivete. Per my other threads, girls and women really do have the power at this age, and it slowly ebbs until it hits a major tipping point at age 27-30, at which point men get a lot more leverage (plus accumulated experience).

Of course, if you don't actually go accumulate experience and hide in your house all day, you won't be mentally prepared to take advantage of that leverage, but that's another topic....

Now you got where my reaction came from. I had picked up on the ages and saw a high school girl being called some awful names. She's young; like a cookie that isn't completely baked yet. I may disagree with her behavior, but there is no need to call her anything mean.

Actually, though, I want to say that overreacted to billsmithglendale -- after some research on urbandictionary.com, I found out that a wh*re and an "attention wh*ore" are two completely different things. I kept wondering why someone who otherwise seemed articulate would suddenly restort to hurling epithets bordering on expletives. So... apologies for that. I would not have written as harshly.

Regarding the situation at hand, I still don't see why you couldn't just give up on the idea of her as a girlfriend and keep her as a friend. Use her as an insight into the "female mind" when you find another girl's behavior perplexing. It can be a relationship of mutual benefit. And the time may just not be right for you two yet.

But ultimately -- your call, dude. It may be that it is too difficult to handle a friendship with her at this stage. Totally understandable too.

Thanks -- I like to think that my posts on these boards are for the most part even-keeled and fair to both genders. I don't like to stoop to name calling, so as you discovered, my use of those terms was to frame her behavior with terms that are familiar to those familiar with pop culture. It didn't dawn on me that "attention wh*re" was something probably most identifiable to people 35 and under.

Unlike some folks here, my posts aren't motivated out of anger or resentment against the female gender, or bemoaning any state of lack of romance in my life. I've had my good times, am happily married, and I don't hate women -- heck, I LOVE women!

However, I also hate to see so many guys as frustrated, used, and abused as I was at a certain age. It does anger me to see anyone (male or female) taken advantage of due to gender economics or lack of knowledge. It's true that some things you have to experience to learn, but in lots of cases it can really help to have a teacher or older student point out the lesson so that you don't stumble into the same problem again and again.

The OP is interested in this woman romantically. If this is going to happen at all, he needs to find some dignity and put some of the onus for this back on her. If she doesn't hit the ball back into his court by going on a date that means something, I think it's time to call it quits. While it is possible to have platonic female friends, having a strong attraction to that female friend generally ruins the situation and leaves the guy in a situation where he is making himself less attractive to other women (because they can see he's hung up on that girl still, and don't want to play second fiddle).

I also think that most women are far more sophisticated mentally, emotionally, and wise at age 18 than most men are. So I don't think she's doing anything out of ignorance -- most women/girls know the rules very early. I personally think she is gaming the system here and using him for attention. I do not think she has any intentions of following through, despite her "I can't go to sleep without saying Goodnight to you" statement. If anything, that statement, contrasted with her actions, makes it plain to me she isn't being innocent.

It doesn't befit a man to be treated like a female buddy. The female rules of friendship are different in some significant ways from male mores, and it almost always turns ugly if either party has any romantic attraction to the other.

Ouch!

Sad but true - women hit puberty earlier, and their minds (according to most studies I've seen) are far more optimized for social interaction and picking up social cues. Guys lag behind consistently. Thus part of the reason why pairings of younger women and older men seem to work out so well.

Hooray

I can say this, as I've observed so many heterosexual relationships, but ladies, YOU ARE ALMOST ALWAYS SO CRAZY.

I think girls are awesome companions and friends, but even sex aside, I would never -ever- want to date you people.

Yes. 27-30 is when women start to hear the biological clock ticking. This could work out strongly in the favor of some Aspie men. For many single women (obviously not all) staring down 30 when you're single means you are husband-hunting pretty seriously. Those who have languished in the "friend zone" in their early 20's will now get the payoff of spending all that time with women even if not romantically. If they actually want a wife, they will get one. This is where our perspectives probably differ the most. You say there is no benefit to a man in being a woman's buddy (or several womens' buddies). But for those men who actually do want to get married (which might be a minority, per another thread), that time spent just being with women has made them into the kind of man a woman would want to marry. Not a player. Certainly not that. And 21 year olds probably want to be players (except those that don't, bless them). But women don't want to actually marry a player. And that guy who spent a lot of time being "just a friend" will be a fine husband to somebody at this point. So I don't think it's time wasted. I think it's time spent learning how to peacefully co-exist with women.

But I will certainly agree with some other points you made. A man who wants a romantic relationship when she doesn't will jeopardize his chances with other women because other women will see him mooning after Ms. Unattainable and won't want to be second fiddle. So my boosterism for being friends with women only applies when he isn't carrying a torch.

Hi Janissy,

I'm probably coming off as too polarized --- If it sounded like I meant that there was no benefit from a platonic friendship with a woman, I certainly didn't mean to message that. My opinion is much in line with yours above in both cases -- if it really is platonic, it can be really great, and if it's not really platonic, but one person using the other for attention while the other pines away, then the consequences will not work out to anyone's liking in the long run. So I think on that we are very much in tune.

On the example of a platonic relationshp of a guy with a group of women -- the obstacle here is that female social norms in their same-sex groups are different than guys. One example -- it is generally looked down upon in a group of guys to dish dirt about each other, to disclose secrets that one person from the group might have told you, etc. -- this is the guy code. However, with women, different story -- gossiping/information trading is the norm, about people in the group and outside. I found this out the hard way when I was the lone guy in a group of female friends -- as soon as I told anyone a secret, they had blurted it out to the others in 24 hours. The female rationale is probably that this is helping facilitate working through the problem and showing concern and care, but it can also be devastating to the male notion of trust and privacy. Even my own wife and mother have done this to me, so I know this wasn't an isolated example. There is also a pretty tricky minefield to walk in terms of inviting people to things, being considerate, and communicating frequently enough -- very different standards for guys vs. girls here. Guys are very laid-back and I would say lazy about a lot of this, while women have very extensive rules on this and have a higher standard in terms of being considerate.

Finally, one thing I did realize during my "all female friends" period is that while women like the novelty of a guy as a friend, they don't date a guy who is too much like a woman. And there is where the socialization thing can backfire -- if a guy adjusts too much, he loses that masculine appeal.

A sibling or close relative might be the best candidate for an opposite gender friendship -- no worries about it turning into anything else, and the person will probably be a lot more honest with you. They might even keep your secrets!

Sorry, to clarify, she's actually a year older than I, at 19...and we're both in our second year of College.

Thanks all for the replies and different perspectives...indeed, I think the best thing to do is ask her out one last time, and if it's no bueno, then I'm done with her. I could try and keep her as a friend, but I think the lingering tension and desire for her would not go away and would just become too much for me to bear, so I'll just stop talking to her and see what happens.

Y'know, it's hard to be mad at an older woman, that's why I like them so much

She loses cool points for not having her own transportation though.

I like this answer. I was thinking she's either very shy and afraid to go on a date, or she is trying not to hurt you. I wish people would just say what they're thinking and be direct. You should ask if she is shy or just will never date you, and she should tell you that she's too shy or that she sees you as a friend only, whichever is true.

Haven't read all the responces...

I think the best thing a person can do early on is to ask themselves "Is this the person I want to be with?" It can be extremely hard to judge a person, but if someone has traits you don't like, then just stop.

The other issue is "Will it work?". Given my personal problems with talking, especially intiating conversations, for me a situation like that could never work out.

Granted, that's assuming that's what she would be like in a relationship, and she could be just playing the game. Personally, I think that says soemthing about a person too, but I could very much be wrong.

I did that with my current partner. I felt she was holding back, and asked her directly if she was and why. First arguement we had, and came very close to breaking up. Not saying not to ask... Just funny to me, with it being the prior responce...

As an older woman, I actually disagree with this statement. Women at 18 are physically mature and sexually driven by then, most are not emotionally or mentally wise. They can be flaky and overly emotional as they figure things out.

I still think you need to move on from this girl. You could ask first if she ever intends to date you but I think it's doubtful. Sorry.

I second that...seven-fold.

This doesn't look promising, dude. She probably enjoys talking to you (hey, you make good company for her), but has no intention of ever dating you. She's probably using you as an online therapist of sorts. This works great for her, but for you, not so much. You could be using that time to talk to girls who do intend to date you at one point. Nowadays, the average amount to talk before meeting is two weeks; one month if you're new to online dating or don't get to talk online very often. If a girl doesn't show any interest in meeting me after two weeks of talking three to four times a week, I assume she has no intention of meeting me, and phase out communicating with her.

What I recommend doing is gradually phase out talking to her. Instead of going on the computer every night, start going four nights per week. (Skipping Fridays and Saturdays will make her think you're out having fun, thus raising your status in her eyes.) After a week or so, reduce communication to twice a week. Then to once a week. Then to even less. In time, she'll realize that you wised up to her time-wasting tricks, and find herself another target.

I actually used to think like you. One time, I spent nearly four months talking to a girl online, hoping to meet her eventually. At that point, I was desperate enough to wait that long. (Also, online dating was new at that point, so that was kind of the norm.) Things were going pretty well, and we finally scheduled a date. However, she backed out at the last minute by simply cutting off communication. Over the years, I lost all tolerance for time-wasters. Two to three weeks is my limit to talk to a girl before meeting her. If she doesn't seem interested in the idea after that time, I assume she's not interested in me and move on. Given the widespread acceptance of online dating, and the well-known precautions (meet in a public place, go during daylight hours, let friends know where you are), there is little or no excuse in putting off a because you "don't know a person".