Ex-Wife's Wild Behaviour

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I could just be naive but it sounds like, unless there's some animosity not spelled out in the OP, she might have seem something she liked, spent some extra time to seal the deal, and she may have figured that it was going well enough that he (Grisha) could take one for the team.

In that case this is what I see interpersonally at play here. If she is on a date, she really can't say excuse me, I have to call my ex husband who's watching our kids at the house right now. Perhaps she could have excused herself to talk on the phone but still - could have raised an eyebrow. She of course, if it was going well, was taking a gamble and knew she was taking a gamble. Now, if she stayed out and was really about getting a one night stand out of the deal (hadn't had any in a while) - again, even more of a gamble because she knows what she's setting into play and she knows that Grisha has every reason to say something about it.

The only other thing I wonder about though - did she have other options as far as perhaps a sister, brother, friend, etc. who could have watched the kids? Having your ex husband watch the kids while your out on a date seems like a last resort. I can understand that a babysitter wouldn't exactly work, you can't really pay the neighborhood fourteen year old who's looking for extra money to stay over night - I'd imagine parents would generally frown on that.

Overall though it sounds like its a situation that's fundamentally built kind of awry. Yes, they are your kids and you should take responsibility but I understand also that this is a special circumstance and as well - parents are supposed to help set moral/developmental standards for their children by what behavior they display in front of them. If the kids were in your charge and she stayed out until 2 PM the next day, not a problem. In her charge though - yes, its definitely a bit inconsiderate; I'd just hope her date was really worth that much.

Maybe it's been said before but my interpretation:-
She's trying to provoke a reaction from you.

It all screams "notice me, notice me, react, be jealous, regretful or SOMETHING". She may be also be trying to compensate for what she might seem as "lost" dating years she missed out on. And took her feelings of anger at a lack of whatever reaction she wanted from you out with her.

Even though it was long ago, and before I was a parent, I remember when I was dumped by someone who was a good person, after a fairly long relationship. It stings far more than if they were a loser, and left me utterly adrift and behaving quite badly for a while just to get some kind of response from them. (Disclaimer though, I also partially believed it was some kind of karmic revenge for having done something similar...so my perception may be off) It gets old soon. However I didn't have responsiblities so I can't say I sympathise.I mean, what if one of the children was taken ill? It happens, and i've cut plenty of evenings out short because my son is upset or not well, and never like to be more than an hour's travel away in case of emergency.

BTW, even if she had come back on time, would you have stayed over there? If so, as well as trying to just get some kind of emotional response out of you, she might have reasoned that the time wouldn't matter if you were going to be there anyhow. And of course would increase the chances of causing drama.

Definately some boundaries need to be set. If you can honestly say you still care about her wellbeing, tell her . And then tell her if she's not back by the agreed time and you can't get in touch with her, due to her being a good mother and having gone to meet a total stranger, you will have to assume the worst and you will ring hospitals, her relatives and the police. Which is reasonable,because someone who loves their children wouldn't be irresponsible enough to go out , not get in contact and not be back by an agreed time for no good reason, right?

I'm also sure emergency services would be impressed to learn she just didn't bother to inform she would be late. Actually, maybe you should do that anyway, it would be a wake up call.

The thing is, when you've been divorced, you're no longer on the same team. I really agree with Ligea_Seroua - this woman is being incredibly provocative, and desperately trying to manipulate this guy. Yuck.

Thanks for yout answer, I can be very black and white sometimes

What i was trying to say is that any letter (even a short note) is a type of attention which could make her assume certain things. Any type of attention can be encouraging her to do more of what she's doing now. The only thing that will make her quit trying to get either positive or negative attention from you is to ignore her and especially her behaviour as much as you can. If people feel alone negative attention can feel better that no attention at all.




Yes. I actually view the word manipulation as behaviorists use it. To me it is not a bad thing to manipulate others, we do it all day. We are trying to change the behaviour of someone else whenever we ask for a drink or a hug or when we give them a compliment about some behavior (we would like to see again in the future).

People don't like being told what to do and most will feel the urge to do just the opposite. Even to the point where they do the opposite of what they REALLY want to do themselves. They don't always want to be oppositional but most people will not respond positively to a request or advice which they have not asked for. I certrainly don't..., do you?

Just ask yourself this... what were you trying to say with your letter? Do you really think she doesn't KNOW she should be home at a reasonable time and you actually have to inform her?

You couldn't be more right about this.

She told me that she "loves" me and "couldn't imagine being with anyone else" and tried to get me to admit that I made a "mistake" when I left her.

On top of this, I had just put the kids to bed (at her house) last night when she appears wearing her "nuclear option" underthings. She proceeds to whip up into a hormonal frenzy until I am physically shaking. Then she says "do you love me?", to which I truthfully reply "not in the way that you want", so she says "well f--k you then" and walks out. I then take a deep breath, gather all my strength and walk out myself.

I know I should have walked out immediately, but she is exploiting my weakest, most vulnerable point. I am a lonely guy, and it could be literally years before I get another opportunity to be this close to a woman and she knows this.

Anyway, I'll try to avoid putting myself in this situation again.

Okay, so do you have any doubt that your ex-wife is only trying to provoke a reaction from you? Seriously, do you still believe the whole babysitting at her house deal is going to work? My suggestion is that you tell your ex that you'll watch your kids at your house. That way you'll still get to see the kids, she'll have to return at a reasonable hour, and there will be no opportunity to see her in her underwear. That might not suit her new all-night party girl, give-it-up-on-the-first-date lifestyle, but that's kinda too bad for her. Maybe she'll have to hire a babysitter for those kind of dates, and instead you can take the kids a few evenings a week so she can have a few hours to herself to "de-stress."

While you may get to see your kids more often if you continue babysitting at her house, the reality is that you are divorced - and a consequence of divorce is that you see your kids less often. Divorce also means you separate, physically and emotionally, from your spouse. I don't see how you're going to achieve that separation if you keep playing this game with your ex-wife - particularly when you know full well that her goal is to get you back. So for the sake of your kids, you need to decide what you want. If you really believe that divorce was the best option, then you need to start behaving like you're divorced. If you want to get back with her, then do that and stop confusing your kids.

One way or another, the exploitation will stop. You can stop it by refusing to babysit at her house, and depriving her of the opportunity to exploit you. Or you can continue to babysit at her house, and the exploitation will stop - because knowing what you know now, if you keep going back there you're volunteering for the abuse - and that is no longer exploitation.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that this arrangement was a complete disaster on all fronts.

I will fundamentally re-work the logistics to place the maximum distance between us - the kids can sleep at my place during her all-nighters and she can take them to school in the morning (assuming she's sober enought).

It's starting to sound like she didn't want the marriage to end in the first place. Before or after the divorce, did you ever try relationship counseling? I'm not saying you should get back with her, but if you never considered that option, it might be worth a shot. I'm guessing it depends on what you want from this. *shrug*

Did you know you really don't sound like you want to avoid it?

I know you're rationalizing and telling yourself you really don't want to be with her... on the other hand your actions could mean something too. Besides from what you thínk.. what have you done, so far? You go back to her again and again even if it is 'only for the kids', sleeping over, showering, arguing... almost having sex with her. It seems to me you have a hard time not giving her attention. Why fight your natural instincts? If you felt like doing her, why not just go ahead and do it? If you would have done it you would have felt better at that time for sure. If you had left after that I even think the "f*ck you comment" from her would have felt better than it did now.

Rationality has it's limits you know. Being mad at or even hating someone is very close to love. It involves emotion, passion, attention. finding out about an accident where 'someone' got injurde doesn't do anything to people. Finding out an enemy has had an accident will get the heart a-pumpin' just as much as if it would have been a lover.

You talked about a one-sided relationship before. Do you mean she was in control, doing what she wants and she was really walking all over you? Would you want her if YOU were in control? If you could do whatever you wanted and she would just be waiting at home for you?

Then why not consider taking back control? As a woman I know thats what women really want. We will fight for control but we never want to get it. Even if men nowadays seem to think women want what they literally ask for or demand. We want a man that is strong enough to stand up to us. The reason is simply that if he can't stand up to us, he won't be of any help if someone want to hurt us or our kids (not that I have any, this is just a natural tendency). So being a kind and sweet, giving partner seriously never works unless you're dating a guy.

You sure are in a good negotiating spot now. You have something she wants... you! You can have her do whatever you want. I can tell you this much; she doesn't want to be sleeping around binge drinking... she wants a guy to take control. This is only natural too. We woman are naturally more vulnerable then men and uncertain of ourselves in order to be fit to accept a man, a leader, the head of a family.

Imagine a guy that takes control. He is dominant, big, self assured and a bit brute even. He stands up straight, looks others in the eyes, especially when he is talking which he does in short direct sentences. This guy gets whatever he wants, can you 'see' him? This is the kind of man that gets anything done from anyone, especially the ladies. Do you know how he acts? Good. Go to the store and buy clothes for that guy. Now, put on the clothes and BE him.

Seems unnatural or wrong or 'not you'? Remember life is just a matter of playing certain roles; as child, friend, worker, lover, etc. All roles are different so you can adapt your role-playing the way is it necessary in a certain setting. Maybe you and your ex really are a good match, there seems to be nothing wrong with the physical attraction which is the one thing you cannot work on, it is either there or it isn't. Besides... if you find someone else you can always leave thén. Thats what 'Grisha the Great' would do if he wasn't treated with enough respect .

He has principles, I actually respect him a lot more for it. The difference between principles and sex is this - principles give you the ability to look in the mirror and like yourself per say, sex perhaps satiates something momentarily? If he would have given into that, given the situation, he would have felt sick - really sick - later. He not only would have gone somewhere that was way past the line but added a whole other layer of bulls--t to their interactions, being able to see the kids, that would have reverberated for years to come. He might be easily sexually-agitated right now but, he's a smarter guy than that.

Luckily, I can answer your question, angelicgoddess. The OP should fight his "natural instincts" because he divorced this woman after enduring years of what he described as an abusive relationship. That means he put his kids through the trauma of a divorce - and that trauma is on-going. Do you have any regard for his children? Do you really think their childhood should be sacrificed here? Do you think it's okay to drag them through a reunion, and then another decade or so of being raised in an environment of hostility and abuse? Is that the type of marriage he she model for his children? Or wait, even better - maybe he could knock her up, and then be coerced back into the marriage. Wouldn't that be great? Bring another child into that mess?

OP, if you need to get laid that badly, take a look at the Ashley Madison Agency (www.ashleymadison.com) - it's a website for cheaters looking for other cheaters. Although you wouldn't be cheating, I'm sure the site is full of married women who only want to get discretely laid, no strings attached - problem solved.



As a woman you know what all women want? I'm sorry, you need to represent your opinion more accurately - as a dysfunctional woman, you know what dysfunctional women want - cause sister, you DON'T speak for me. As a functional woman, the only kind of relationship I'm interested in with a man is a partnership - not a power struggle, not head games, not equating hate to love. You're entitled to your opinion, but please don't believe that what's going on in your head is what goes on in every woman's.



Seriously, this is the worst relationship advice I've read. The OP can have her do whatever he wants? No, angelicgoddess, he can't. He said that they tried a number of things to work out their differences before he initiated the divorce. What you're advocating is a strategy completely rooted in an extremely dysfunctional view of relationships. He should be a brute? He should "get anything done from anyone, especially the ladies?" What color is the sky in your world, angelicgoddess?

OP, what you need to be concerned about at this point is your ex-wife's reaction to your rejection. Although it may seem to you like she has the power - because she's the one doing the teasing - your refusal to sleep with her has shown her that her all-powerful va-jay-jay isn't so all-powerful anymore. I can assure you that she's going to feel humiliated by your rejection, and that humiliation is going to make her angry. So be prepared for an escalation in anger, petty arguments, custodial interference, manipulation, etc. Just be meticulous about documenting what's happened so far - including all the lingerie modeling - so that if you have to challenge her in court, you'll have the documentation you need.

Everybody has principles, though not everyone shares the same principles.

The way I see it is that here is a man that chooses to spend a significant amount of time with a woman that loves him, raises her children, tells her how he would like her to behave (thus not giving her the chance to fall in love with someone else)... he even cares about her enough to worry that she might have an accident of some sort. He cares about this relation in such a way that he also puts significant amounts of time and energy (by for example writing texts on an online forum) into getting along with her. Besides that he is faithful, there is no other woman in his life.

They obviously have issues, they are both hurt very much I assume.

But being divorced to someone you still have feelings for and having your own children be seperated from the people they are supposed to identify with and base their identities on because of issues is not my personal definition of behaving according to principles.

My mom always says; if there is still enough left to argue, it is not over yet.

I'll give angelicgoddess this - she's right about the new culture, which accounts for broad sweeping stretches of my age demographic and perhaps younger but I hear that younger generations are actually going back to more conservative value whereas generation x and early generation y are really a floating bubble of f-ups created by mistakes made my a great many very gullible and naive parents. My thought: f--- the new culture. Its Marquis De Sade, ie. if it feels good do it, completely forget all consequences (consequences which stay with a person for another 30 or 40 years but what...is suicide afterward the solution or just living a really f'd up life?), its something that's actively taking relationship culture and everything we think we know about ourselves as men and women back to the 7th century.

Its like this, I'd do whatever I can to build myself up, be able to be a man for someone else where it matters, but...a symbiotic/parasitic relationship where myself and my wife are acting out absurd and abusive roles because rather than articulate evolutionary psychology to our advantage we want to throw everything out the window and be as literal with it as we can? I'm not sure I'll ever understand on any level how people not only give in to this crap but actually throw themselves at it and even go as far as to make it the new gold standard for relationships.

I don't see how that is anything other than moot? If he cares about her as his ex-wife (out of preference to be a good person and yes, respecting the span and memory of the marriage) and cares about the well being of his kids - its just as rational for him to be acting exactly as he is not. Your claim when you really think about it like that is unfalsifiable.



I can't think of anyone I've heard on the issue who thinks abuse and screaming matches between parents is a better environment for a child to grow up in than a single-parent household. The later isn't the optimal but, the later breeds a lack of healthy habits rather than very specific set of negative ones. Your mom has a right to her opinion but, from a lot of what we're seeing in these posts, you're giving quite a testimony as to why I wouldn't agree with her.

You know, there's always been a segment of our culture that is selfish, self-absorbed, immature, etc. I don't think that has become the gold standard for relationships. I think the gold standard is represented by what each of us is willing to settle for in our own relationships. If you don't accept a weird, selfish, dysfunctional, twisted relationship, you won't have one. Does that make sense?

screaming and abuse arn't just there to begin with. It takes two to tango. You cannot fight on your own. If one partner is willing to give up the powerstruggle for the good of the relationship fights will become less common and fade eventually. Every relationship is a power struggle in which we all have to fight to get in a fulfilling position. That's just how nature works.

There is a lot of domestic violence out there and when people have started 'going there' chances are they'll do it again in another relationship. Violence spreads this way because its easier to be torn into violence than to build harmony. Unless the individuals involved will look inside themselves and see what they can change there in stead of changing the other person.