Blog post on the epidemic of forced celibacy in males

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Ron Jeremy disagrees

I completely agree. People have to live with the choices they made.

As for looking for signs of trafficked women (pimps, blacks involved (not racist just true) Russians,etc.) it is about reducing your chances. Nothing in this world is ever perfect no matter how Much we wish it (common aspie mistake). For me I have one to two indpendents I stick with. I like the steadiness aspect of it.

So basically Hyperlexian's point is that unless you are tall,pretty, and socially adept,or female you should accept forced celibacy as your lot in life and suffer nobly for no reward.

There was a poster on here recently from my country who described her time working in a brothel and said she really enjoyed it, which seems odd to me, but there you go. Prostitution was made legal here some years ago and it made things better for them, they are just like other workers now protected by law and all govt mandated working conditions and so-on.
To my mind prostitution is not ideal, however making it illegal doesn't solve anything and there will always be a demand and people wanting to meet that demand.

studies have been done with women in europe, north america, and australia/new zealand. i do not know about asia, but the problem of japanese sex tourists is renowned in the human rights literature... not exactly a good situation.


it is bad for business to speak negatively of the job while in it, because it is bad for business. ex-prostitutes will very rarely speak highly of the job. also, the fact of how hard it was to staff the brothels in the netherlands is evidence of that. calling it "a job" denies/minimizes the actual negative psychological effects.


don't understand what you are asking here. i do not argue FOR legal prostitution.

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i don't think that's true. i think that is how men in our patriarchal governments package it, so that they can continue to use and discard the bodies of women that playthings.


the problem is that illegal prositution and human trafficking INCREASE with legalization, so there is no positive benefit in terms of reducing those things with the introduction of regulation.

sweden has a good approach - make it legal for the prostitutes and illegal for the johns. it acknowledges that some women may be depearte enough to engage in the industry, yet also acknowedges that it is not ethically sound. here in canada another approach was tried - educating the Johns and providing social services for the women. it was a huge success. legalization and criminalization do not have to be the only 2 choices.

it's definitely possible that there are some people who enjoy the job - no reason to think otherwise. but that is not the overall trend of how most women feel upon leaving the industry. it has a big psychological impact on a majority of women.

in no way have i ever said that. if it helps emotionally you to demonize me, go ahead. i don't know if you objectify women intentionally (as a coping mechanism), or if you actually think they are only objects to use for sex (you stated elsewhere that a woman who would not have sex is worthess). if it is the first situation, you may want to try therapy or training seminars to improve your social skills. if it is the second situation, then there is no point in arguing with you about prostitution, because i am talking about human beings and you would be talking about objects.

1) I never stated that. I believe you are referring to the debate I got into with erisad about expectations.

2) I am not demonizing you as a person either. Simply pointing out how your argument (the malarek position) boils down to "if you're not physically attractive then tough s**t"

here is where you said it, and i called you out on it at the time:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3118916.html#3118916



my argument does not boil down to physical appearance at all, but it is logical you would try to represent my position in terms of some kind of extreme tangent, considering that you have had absolutely no success in refuting my stance.

I suggest that you start doing your research now. Focus on towns that have a market for your profession, and a large Christian population. Contact the local churches and ask for demographic information about their congregations. Attend some services, and see what you like and what you don't. Then focus your job search/recruitment activities on the areas you like the best.

agreed, wholeheartedly!

that felt good.

There is no leap of logic involved. I believe that many, many women currently involved in prostitution are being harmed. If we could get to the point as a society where we cease to demonize prostitution, however, and care for the sex workers doing the job, I think the current level of danger/potential harm in sex work will be drastically reduced. Frankly, in the GFE scenarios @RICKY5 participates in, no one is harmed. There is a very civilized, decent exchange of sex for money. Now if that's okay with @RICKY 5 and the young lady involved, why should anyone else care about it?


Okay, I find (the bolded text) illogical. It seems to be your position that any woman who is not self-hating and disgusted by her choice to exchange sex for money is either a liar or someone who cannot be trusted to make decisions about what to do with her own body. You're a pretty logical person @hyperlexian....your argument doesn't make sense to me.


Again, I understand your perspective that women who trade sex for money are harming themselves, but that's your opinion. I don't think there's a stronger argument than the need to have control over one's own body. Why should you, or the government, decide if it's okay for me to trade sex for money? Sorry - my body, my value system.


I'm sorry....use and discard the bodies of women [as] playthings? Because a man pays a woman to have sex, she's being used and discarded? You're entitled to your own morays about sex....I'm just not comfortable with forcing society to adopt your morays via legislation.

To go back to Sweden....my understanding is that Swedish society is heavily taxed (like personal income is taxed at something like 70%), but those heavy taxes support a society that is very much based in socialism: education is free, the government will find individuals a place to live, it's hard to get fired from a job. But even in a society with a very strong, very coordinated safety net - a society that it's hard to screw up so badly that you'd have to choose prostitution as a means of survival - prostitution continues to exist. Why? My guess is that there are still men who are willing and/or forced to pay for sex, and there are still women who are willing to provide it for a price.

So for men who are socially, emotionally, physically, etc. handicapped, or men who are not that attractive, or men who - like Charlie Sheen - just want to pay women to leave after the sex is over, prostitution helps them quench a powerful desire. And the women - at least in a GFE - are reasonably compensated. And the men who patronize them won't tolerate abusive, crazy women because they're afraid they won't be able to attract a woman who isn't abusive and crazy; they won't be so focused on trying to get sex from a woman that they creep her out and scare her off; they won't feel alienated and disconnected from a very important part of life. They won't let their anger at being unable to make a typical social contract with a woman build into a murderous rage - they won't be George Sodini. To be clear, I don't think it's okay to force women into prostitution, or keep them in prostitution against their will, or to deny women the respect, benefits and safety accorded to any other profession. I truly believe a comprehensive approach to the legalization of prostitution will benefit women who choose to earn a living this way.

HA! Yes, I see we can still agree on some things! Again, you ma'am, are a formidable opponent.

Sex tourism in asia seems more an issue in poorer regions than in a developed country like Japan, soaplands (which penetration is forbidden) are legal while explicit prostitution is illegal, and yeah, there have been reports of some rings running in there which are illegal, and being prosecuted though, but doesn't seem much of sex tourism issue given that japan is xenophobic and I gather that soaplands are explicitely for japanese citizens and foreingers are not allowed.


I was curious about your position related to legal prostitution and wether you considered that there isn't a valid justification for it, from your moral or ideological perspective.


Partly, it seems to be, being legal, sex workers being able to get legal protection and benefits that otherwise wouldn't be if their job is criminialized, as nostromo stated in his post.


well, the idea of legalizing of prostitution seems to come from the realization that prostitution is impossible to eliminate thus legalizing but strictly regulated by the government to be an alternative solution, this is the idea, wether that actually works is something that seems apparent, I can't claim certainty to this on wehter that is succesfully the case or not, the regulations may need to be improved in such case rather than criminalization being a unique solution

About the trafficking increasing since legalization, I don't know, it might be a correlation vs causation thing, that could probably be argued by legalization proponets, and it wouldn't be surprising. I haven't read about studies that suggest this, although not all studies seem all reliable and trustworthy, especially if there is an activist organization behind it (I distrust activists) (ideological bias), I mean, I am familiar with "scientific studies" claimed by vegans, and I discard them. However such studies could possibly be legitimate.

Last edited by greenblue on 19 Oct 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

you have no way of knowing whether the women are harmed in RICKY5's experiences; there is no evidence to base the assumption of safety on. considering the large number of women who ARE harmed in the industry (which we agree on), it is not even a safe bet.

i care about it because he repeatedly tries to 'sell' the idea of prostitution on WP. he has decided to promote his idea, therefore i will promote my idea. i didn't hunt him down and watch his activities; he has posted about them repeatedly here, and if he chooses to objectify women as simple sexual conduits (please see above where a quoted him saying, "What's the point of a girl who is asexual?" i will be saying something about his actual expressed opinions about women.


no, i stated before that there are some women who tolerate or even enjoy the job. but they are the minority. do you honestly think that if a John asks a prostitute what she thinks of the job, she will be honest about it if she hates it though? no way. considering the high number of women who do try to leave the profession, or who are only there because they are trapped for one reason or another (be it drug abuse, sex trafficking, a violent pimp, or extreme poverty, etc.) it is not logical to think that the majority of women are pleased to be doing the job.


but... you agreed it is harmful... you are contradicting yourself... it isn't just my opinion either. go back through this thread and you can find links to studies (and quoted examples) that show how damaging it is to women. i consider your perspective to be rooted in ideology without concern for the actual women as people.


RICKY5's perspective on women perfectly illustrates my point. and yes, that is how i view prostitution. prostitution is the commodification of sex. if you purchase your friends, how do you feel about them? and how do you expect society to view you?


i don't get your point here. sweden is not utopia, and the women may be trafficked. also see my quote earlier about how hard it was to staff the brothels legally in the netherlands after legalized, regulated prostitution was introduced. and even now a great deal of the women are legal foreign workers.


i have an online friend with self-reported facial deformities (though he looks nice to me, so i am not a judge), and he has chosen to turn down sex partners. i think sexual opportunities are not really all that dependent on appearance. an unspecified number of the men who complain loudly on WP have terrible attitudes, or are misogynistic, or do not try at all to improve their opportunities or social skills.

reasonably compensated? do you know how much a single prostitute is worth per year in canada? nearly half a million dollars per year. how much of that do you think each woman actually gets to keep? a woman could retire after a couple of short years if she actually kept the money.

some women and their agencies or pimps will even misrepresent themselves as independent contactors as it is more attractive to many men. it is a manipulation tool designed to convince men they are not paying most of their money to a man who controls the earnings. legalization is very close to being considered a failed experiment in amsterdam, and that was considered one of the best examples of what was supposed to be a positive social experiment. it is still controlled by pimps and drug rings, but it is just hidden more carefully.

prostitution does not prevent rages like george sodini's, because prostitution predates murderous rages and they now co-exist. many sociopathic serial killers actually target prostitutes, so the sex trade does absolutely nothing in terms of helping them to be less murderous. lack of sex does not lead to killing; mental illness does.

Illegal for the "johns"? where's the 'good approach' on that?


I'm curious, what would consist educating the "johns"?


In the case of sweeden, only the part of the demand, but criminalization, still.


I also promote the idea, for lonely men who are unable to be in a relationship and never have been in a relationship, and if they long for the experience of being with a woman, as an alternative, and I have seen female members recommending this, in this site.


well, I speak for myself on the issue, relating to how I view women, not how other men are perceived on how they view women, and I haven't paid attention to that here, so, it is innacurate to conclude that X represent all men who use escort services, because not all are X, there would be a fair amount, but not all.


'Purchase' is a way to put it, especially from an opossing view, "money can buy friends" comes to mind, well, I really don't see nothing so wrong about that, however something to be careful about I would say, which that is a moral and idealistic different way of looking at it.


It depends on their personality, if I like the way they act, I tend to like them, I even developed a crush on one, but I was unable to try to be more than that, and I doubt she would have wanted, but that's me.


I don't see why should I care about how society views me, society doesn't seem to look at me with much pride already.

Last edited by greenblue on 19 Oct 2010, 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yes, I do have a way of knowing if women are harmed in @RICKY5's experiences: he patronizes the same two women frequently. If he were harming these women, they wouldn't have accepted a second appointment with him, much less multiple appointments.


I don't support every viewpoint @RICKY5 has expressed. He and I have spoken privately about some of his opinions, and I hope to continue a dialog with him - with the hope of broadening his perspective and changing some of his attitudes. However, I think he's solved an important problem through his use of escorts. I think it's an important perspective to share, and I clearly, strongly believe that every woman has the right to decide who has access to her body, and under what terms. And she has that right regardless of what other women think about her decisions.


You keep going back and forth between two separate scenarios, and I've tried my best to make my perspective clear. You continue to cite examples of women who are currently prostitutes and have been forced into prostitution. I don't favor prostitution under those circumstances. I'd like to see the whole approach to prostitution change, so those situations are eliminated.


No, I'm not contradicting myself. Again, you're ignoring the context of my remarks. The current system is corrupt and harmful to women. I don't want to perpetuate the current system. I want a totally new system. As far as my concern for women as people, at least I trust them to make choices about who they have sex with, and why.


I think that's the whole point: it's not necessary to feel anything about a prostitute, male of female. It's not a relationship, it's not love or even like. It's a business arrangement.


My point is that even in really well structured societies in which one has to try hard to fail, prostitution still thrives. It's not going away, so we might as well deal with it in the most constructive way possible.


Again, that's my point. Sex workers should get their fair share of the money being made. Now let me see....whatever could insure that happens? Comprehensive legislation, perhaps?


Soooo.....not implementing comprehensive legislation and processes (clearly, they didn't eliminate the criminal element) is an example of what? How to fail miserably at legalizing prostitution? And where does that leave the sex workers? Just as unprotected as they were before. Shame on them.


Prostitution predates murderous rages? I dunno....what about Cain and Abel? Please see all the comments I've made about getting rid of the current approach/laws.