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The UCSB shooter--an Aspie with a rant against women

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cubedemon6073
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29 Jul 2014, 7:34 am

Jono wrote:
Hey Tarantella, since you have absolutely no statistics to back up your claims, I've found some for you. Though I could not find the study on the internet, according to a study (Mills, Janiszewska & Zabala, 2011) which surveyed college students, it appears that only 6% of women ask men out on first dates, while 83% of men ask women out on first dates. The results of that survey are illustrated in these histograms. The first histogram is the most revealing as it shows that the vast majority women prefer to be asked out as opposed to asking someone out and the reverse is true for men:


From the blog post of the professor who did the survey with his students. I don't buy his possible explanation from evolutionary psychology though, I think it's cultural but the results still speak for themselves. The women that you say ask men out, make up only 6% of all women:



Jono, this is very interesting my friend. How was she able to experience what she experienced though if these stats hold up as true? She does have an anecdote and can we deny her experiences? I don't believe so. There is this old saying that birds of a feather flock together so it may be possible that she gravitated towards the women who do ask guys out. It could be that in her given area a lot more women ask guys out as well. Maybe the stats there for women asking guys out are far above the average.

Even if the stats you posted are true it raises the question of how she was able to have her experiences and meet a lot of women over the last three decades who asked men out. We have missing data. Maybe some of the regions have some exceptions or the 6% simply gravitate together.

Jono, is this study broken down by state or region. Was it done in multiple countries and in multiple areas of these countries? How was it broken down?



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29 Jul 2014, 7:47 am

I'm not a bad-looking guy, and I'm pleasant enough. I've only been "asked out" once in my life--and that was by a 17-year-old undergoing a religious crisis. She asked me if I wanted to go for an ice cream soda in 1978.

I was once dragged (willingly LOL) into a woman's apartment. She didn't ask. She just did.



tarantella64
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29 Jul 2014, 11:31 am

1. It's not possible to cite The Rules with a straight face. It was published to great derision in the mid-90s, btw. About 20 years ago now.

2. College studies cover ages 18-22, approximately. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of women are not 18-22 years old. Believe it or not, even at my advance age, I'm in fact a woman.

3. Even amongst the women polled in what's no doubt a highly selective study (see "eta", below), they aren't saying they don't ask men out. They're saying they prefer to be asked. The study's also saying that men prefer to do the asking. Given the researcher, though, I'd take the whole thing with a mountain of salt, then throw it away and find someone without an agenda to do the study.

4. Your histogram etc. miss the point anyway. If men are doing more asking, that isn't necessarily because women refuse to ask. (And given the hands up here and male friends' experience on dating sites, I can't accept your suggestion that it's some tiny minority of women willing to ask. Just doesn't accord with reality.) If men ask far more often than women do, though, that could certainly fuel the perception that women don't or won't ask. Then the question is why their ask rate is so much higher than women's.

eta: oh, ffs. Your source is like the king of evopsych, publishing in Psychology Today. Really, do consider your sources.



cubedemon6073
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29 Jul 2014, 11:57 am

tarantella64 wrote:
1. It's not possible to cite The Rules with a straight face. It was published to great derision in the mid-90s, btw. About 20 years ago now.

2. College studies cover ages 18-22, approximately. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of women are not 18-22 years old. Believe it or not, even at my advance age, I'm in fact a woman.

3. Even amongst the women polled in what's no doubt a highly selective study (see "eta", below), they aren't saying they don't ask men out. They're saying they prefer to be asked. The study's also saying that men prefer to do the asking. Given the researcher, though, I'd take the whole thing with a mountain of salt, then throw it away and find someone without an agenda to do the study.

4. Your histogram etc. miss the point anyway. If men are doing more asking, that isn't necessarily because women refuse to ask. (And given the hands up here and male friends' experience on dating sites, I can't accept your suggestion that it's some tiny minority of women willing to ask. Just doesn't accord with reality.) If men ask far more often than women do, though, that could certainly fuel the perception that women don't or won't ask. Then the question is why their ask rate is so much higher than women's.

eta: oh, ffs. Your source is like the king of evopsych, publishing in Psychology Today. Really, do consider your sources.


I just read the article and noted your objections. What is wrong with the researcher? Is there something about him we should know?



tarantella64
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29 Jul 2014, 12:11 pm

Evolutionary psychology is essentially a political, not scientific, movement bent on explaining gender differences as hardwired, biological, and essentially unchangeable because selected for evolutionarily over the ages. It's regarded as trash by biologists, who do a better job of explaining and researching evolution. Essentially it's psychologists dabbling in evolution to support their own political agendas. This guy's at the head of the movement, which is likely why he's cited here; maybe his name's often bandied about on the angry-men sites.

Oh, and PT is not a serious magazine. It's the one where that Nemsky charlatan publishes, too, the one who deems those with AS unemployable.



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29 Jul 2014, 12:19 pm

Yeesh. I remember when "The Rules" came out. A few extremely traditional older women I knew thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread......for a few months. The rest of us guffawed openly until that particular fad was replaced by something else.

The TV show "How I Met Your Mother" did a parody episode on a similar "book of rules." It turned out about the same way the original "Rules" book did back in the 90s.



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29 Jul 2014, 1:03 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
And can you see yourself managing a room full of kindergarteners for 180 days each year while meeting academic testing standards, keeping parents, the board, and administrators happy, and abiding by IEPs, being nice all day long despite the screaming and kid-chaos? Would you do it for $45K and not much opportunity for advancement?


No, but that's my point. They should treat teachers properly but the fact that they don't ultimately is an injustice to males who suffer in an education system that doesn't understand or care to understand them.

And in my country female test scores are higher presumably because men can't put up with pointless s**t like doing tests. And that too is an injustice. If you have a skill, but you can't write it as an answer on a test, then you are f****d. If you can build something with wood or metal or electronics, no one really cares. But if you can spell the word wood or metal or electronics on a test, you are an 'A' student guaranteed to be better than everyone else.



Last edited by jerry00 on 29 Jul 2014, 1:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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29 Jul 2014, 1:03 pm

Eureka13 wrote:
Yeesh. I remember when "The Rules" came out. A few extremely traditional older women I knew thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread......for a few months. The rest of us guffawed openly until that particular fad was replaced by something else.

The TV show "How I Met Your Mother" did a parody episode on a similar "book of rules." It turned out about the same way the original "Rules" book did back in the 90s.


it gets annoying and frustrating, pisses me off on how us guys are always told to "Man Up, Be a Man, Grow a Pair, Grow some Balls", etc., seriously, that's when I feel like punching a random guys lights out for questioning my manhood, masculinity like that.



cubedemon6073
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29 Jul 2014, 3:39 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
Evolutionary psychology is essentially a political, not scientific, movement bent on explaining gender differences as hardwired, biological, and essentially unchangeable because selected for evolutionarily over the ages. It's regarded as trash by biologists, who do a better job of explaining and researching evolution. Essentially it's psychologists dabbling in evolution to support their own political agendas. This guy's at the head of the movement, which is likely why he's cited here; maybe his name's often bandied about on the angry-men sites.

Oh, and PT is not a serious magazine. It's the one where that Nemsky charlatan publishes, too, the one who deems those with AS unemployable.


Oh! I didn't even look at the link carefully. You're right it is from psychology today. You mean Marty Nemko? Well I have some good news for you. He took all of his articles about AS down. Let's just say I was the final catalyst for him taking the article down. I questioned all of his points and asked him to provide specific examples.

Marty no like me very much :D



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29 Jul 2014, 4:03 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
1. It's not possible to cite The Rules with a straight face. It was published to great derision in the mid-90s, btw. About 20 years ago now.

2. College studies cover ages 18-22, approximately. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of women are not 18-22 years old. Believe it or not, even at my advance age, I'm in fact a woman.

3. Even amongst the women polled in what's no doubt a highly selective study (see "eta", below), they aren't saying they don't ask men out. They're saying they prefer to be asked. The study's also saying that men prefer to do the asking. Given the researcher, though, I'd take the whole thing with a mountain of salt, then throw it away and find someone without an agenda to do the study.

4. Your histogram etc. miss the point anyway. If men are doing more asking, that isn't necessarily because women refuse to ask. (And given the hands up here and male friends' experience on dating sites, I can't accept your suggestion that it's some tiny minority of women willing to ask. Just doesn't accord with reality.) If men ask far more often than women do, though, that could certainly fuel the perception that women don't or won't ask. Then the question is why their ask rate is so much higher than women's.

eta: oh, ffs. Your source is like the king of evopsych, publishing in Psychology Today. Really, do consider your sources.


You are splitting hairs, if men ask more often, then that means that means that men do most of the asking. It's that simple.

Where are your statistics? I've asked you for statistics and you have provided none, those on the other hand are the the only statistics that I could find on the internet. You cannot expect me to take what you're saying seriously if you cannot produce your own figures, especially if it contradicts my own personal experience as well as the experience of the majority of my friends, both male and female.

As for why men do most of the asking, the reason for that is simple and I've been trying to say it the whole time. The men do the most asking (which is actually synonymous with with saying that they ask more often) because it's expected of them, it's as simple as that. If women prefer to be asked, then it stands to reason that they would avoid asking if they could, thereby reinforcing the gender norm that men do most of the asking.

Is there something about 18-22 year olds that make them more likely to wait for men to ask them out, rather than the other way round? How does that age group make it biased? Are you saying that most of the women who do the asking are in their 50's? that sounds like bad news for young men (like me) who want someone in their own age group.



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29 Jul 2014, 4:09 pm

Jono wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
1. It's not possible to cite The Rules with a straight face. It was published to great derision in the mid-90s, btw. About 20 years ago now.

2. College studies cover ages 18-22, approximately. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of women are not 18-22 years old. Believe it or not, even at my advance age, I'm in fact a woman.

3. Even amongst the women polled in what's no doubt a highly selective study (see "eta", below), they aren't saying they don't ask men out. They're saying they prefer to be asked. The study's also saying that men prefer to do the asking. Given the researcher, though, I'd take the whole thing with a mountain of salt, then throw it away and find someone without an agenda to do the study.

4. Your histogram etc. miss the point anyway. If men are doing more asking, that isn't necessarily because women refuse to ask. (And given the hands up here and male friends' experience on dating sites, I can't accept your suggestion that it's some tiny minority of women willing to ask. Just doesn't accord with reality.) If men ask far more often than women do, though, that could certainly fuel the perception that women don't or won't ask. Then the question is why their ask rate is so much higher than women's.

eta: oh, ffs. Your source is like the king of evopsych, publishing in Psychology Today. Really, do consider your sources.


You are splitting hairs, if men ask more often, then that means that means that men do most of the asking. It's that simple.

Where are your statistics? I've asked you for statistics and you have provided none, those on the other hand are the the only statistics that I could find on the internet. You cannot expect me to take what you're saying seriously if you cannot produce your own figures, especially if it contradicts my own personal experience as well as the experience of the majority of my friends, both male and female.

As for why men do most of the asking, the reason for that is simple and I've been trying to say it the whole time. The men do the most asking (which is actually synonymous with with saying that they ask more often) because it's expected of them, it's as simple as that. If women prefer to be asked, then it stands to reason that they would avoid asking if they could, thereby reinforcing the gender norm that men do most of the asking.

Is there something about 18-22 year olds that make them more likely to wait for men to ask them out, rather than the other way round? How does that age group make it biased? Are you saying that most of the women who do the asking are in their 50's? that sounds like bad news for young men (like me) who want someone in their own age group.


Some women claim that men expect them to not be too forward, you heard too often stories of the like "I have asked guys out before but I was rejected and told by them I was too forward" - and also they are more likely to get way dishearten by one rejection and stop trying, you hear stories like "I have asked out once a guy but he rejected me, so I will never initiate again".



Jono
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29 Jul 2014, 4:17 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
Evolutionary psychology is essentially a political, not scientific, movement bent on explaining gender differences as hardwired, biological, and essentially unchangeable because selected for evolutionarily over the ages. It's regarded as trash by biologists, who do a better job of explaining and researching evolution. Essentially it's psychologists dabbling in evolution to support their own political agendas. This guy's at the head of the movement, which is likely why he's cited here; maybe his name's often bandied about on the angry-men sites.

Oh, and PT is not a serious magazine. It's the one where that Nemsky charlatan publishes, too, the one who deems those with AS unemployable.


That's not what evo psych is about and as far as I know, it's not political. It's about trying to identify aspects of human psychology and behaviour that are adaptational in origin. Granted, some ego-psych explanations that some of those researchers come up with are a bit hokey and sometimes they fail to distinguish between learned behaviour and instinctive behaviour but it's not just about gender and the notion that some human behaviour is a result of evolution is sound. Few biologists reject the notion that some animal behaviour is the result of evolution for example and the main criticisms from biologists about eve-psych are actually about it's testability, not because it has a political agenda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo-psych



Last edited by Jono on 29 Jul 2014, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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29 Jul 2014, 4:18 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
Evolutionary psychology is essentially a political, not scientific, movement bent on explaining gender differences as hardwired, biological, and essentially unchangeable because selected for evolutionarily over the ages. It's regarded as trash by biologists, who do a better job of explaining and researching evolution. Essentially it's psychologists dabbling in evolution to support their own political agendas. This guy's at the head of the movement, which is likely why he's cited here; maybe his name's often bandied about on the angry-men sites.

Oh, and PT is not a serious magazine. It's the one where that Nemsky charlatan publishes, too, the one who deems those with AS unemployable.


No, Evolutionary psychology is simply a branch of psychology - not some conspirator movement.

And guess what? Many scientists, neurologists and doctors consider the whole psychology/psychiatry trash too and not true science (and doctors don't usually view psychiatry as true medicine too), not just evo psych ; which means that Asperger's Syndrome, the whole DSM and ....Wrongplanet are all trash too.

Please tell me why psychology should be regarded valid while evolutionary psychology is not.



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29 Jul 2014, 4:24 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Jono wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
1. It's not possible to cite The Rules with a straight face. It was published to great derision in the mid-90s, btw. About 20 years ago now.

2. College studies cover ages 18-22, approximately. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of women are not 18-22 years old. Believe it or not, even at my advance age, I'm in fact a woman.

3. Even amongst the women polled in what's no doubt a highly selective study (see "eta", below), they aren't saying they don't ask men out. They're saying they prefer to be asked. The study's also saying that men prefer to do the asking. Given the researcher, though, I'd take the whole thing with a mountain of salt, then throw it away and find someone without an agenda to do the study.

4. Your histogram etc. miss the point anyway. If men are doing more asking, that isn't necessarily because women refuse to ask. (And given the hands up here and male friends' experience on dating sites, I can't accept your suggestion that it's some tiny minority of women willing to ask. Just doesn't accord with reality.) If men ask far more often than women do, though, that could certainly fuel the perception that women don't or won't ask. Then the question is why their ask rate is so much higher than women's.

eta: oh, ffs. Your source is like the king of evopsych, publishing in Psychology Today. Really, do consider your sources.


You are splitting hairs, if men ask more often, then that means that means that men do most of the asking. It's that simple.

Where are your statistics? I've asked you for statistics and you have provided none, those on the other hand are the the only statistics that I could find on the internet. You cannot expect me to take what you're saying seriously if you cannot produce your own figures, especially if it contradicts my own personal experience as well as the experience of the majority of my friends, both male and female.

As for why men do most of the asking, the reason for that is simple and I've been trying to say it the whole time. The men do the most asking (which is actually synonymous with with saying that they ask more often) because it's expected of them, it's as simple as that. If women prefer to be asked, then it stands to reason that they would avoid asking if they could, thereby reinforcing the gender norm that men do most of the asking.

Is there something about 18-22 year olds that make them more likely to wait for men to ask them out, rather than the other way round? How does that age group make it biased? Are you saying that most of the women who do the asking are in their 50's? that sounds like bad news for young men (like me) who want someone in their own age group.


Some women claim that men expect them to not be too forward, you heard too often stories of the like "I have asked guys out before but I was rejected and told by them I was too forward" - and also they are more likely to get way dishearten by one rejection and stop trying, you hear stories like "I have asked out once a guy but he rejected me, so I will never initiate again".


Exactly, because of gender norms. That's what I'm talking about. Those women are perfectly correct that some men will reject them simply for being too forward for asking them out, for the same reason there will be some women who expect men to be the ones to ask them. It's a cultural gender norm that affects both genders. There's even a kind of a myth among those kinds of women that if a man doesn't ask them, he's not interested, which isn't true.



tarantella64
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29 Jul 2014, 4:41 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
Evolutionary psychology is essentially a political, not scientific, movement bent on explaining gender differences as hardwired, biological, and essentially unchangeable because selected for evolutionarily over the ages. It's regarded as trash by biologists, who do a better job of explaining and researching evolution. Essentially it's psychologists dabbling in evolution to support their own political agendas. This guy's at the head of the movement, which is likely why he's cited here; maybe his name's often bandied about on the angry-men sites.

Oh, and PT is not a serious magazine. It's the one where that Nemsky charlatan publishes, too, the one who deems those with AS unemployable.


No, Evolutionary psychology is simply a branch of psychology - not some conspirator movement.

And guess what? Many scientists, neurologists and doctors consider the whole psychology/psychiatry trash too and not true science (and doctors don't usually view psychiatry as true medicine too), not just evo psych ; which means that Asperger's Syndrome, the whole DSM and ....Wrongplanet are all trash too.

Please tell me why psychology should be regarded valid while evolutionary psychology is not.


Will preface by saying I work in science, with scientists, and have done for over a decade. Worked with docs in a med college before that.

Yes, on the whole, they take psychology and psychiatry seriously. They do it mainly because we don't know enough about the brain to do without it yet. Do they regard psychologists as doctors, no, but there's some level of respect.

Evopsych is not taken seriously because it's a transparent attempt at misusing biological science (in boneheaded ways that demonstrate that the evopsych guys don't understand the papers they're reading) to support obviously retrograde social theory. Which annoys biologists, many of whom work in evolution.



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29 Jul 2014, 4:44 pm

Jono wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Jono wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
1. It's not possible to cite The Rules with a straight face. It was published to great derision in the mid-90s, btw. About 20 years ago now.

2. College studies cover ages 18-22, approximately. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of women are not 18-22 years old. Believe it or not, even at my advance age, I'm in fact a woman.

3. Even amongst the women polled in what's no doubt a highly selective study (see "eta", below), they aren't saying they don't ask men out. They're saying they prefer to be asked. The study's also saying that men prefer to do the asking. Given the researcher, though, I'd take the whole thing with a mountain of salt, then throw it away and find someone without an agenda to do the study.

4. Your histogram etc. miss the point anyway. If men are doing more asking, that isn't necessarily because women refuse to ask. (And given the hands up here and male friends' experience on dating sites, I can't accept your suggestion that it's some tiny minority of women willing to ask. Just doesn't accord with reality.) If men ask far more often than women do, though, that could certainly fuel the perception that women don't or won't ask. Then the question is why their ask rate is so much higher than women's.

eta: oh, ffs. Your source is like the king of evopsych, publishing in Psychology Today. Really, do consider your sources.


You are splitting hairs, if men ask more often, then that means that means that men do most of the asking. It's that simple.

Where are your statistics? I've asked you for statistics and you have provided none, those on the other hand are the the only statistics that I could find on the internet. You cannot expect me to take what you're saying seriously if you cannot produce your own figures, especially if it contradicts my own personal experience as well as the experience of the majority of my friends, both male and female.

As for why men do most of the asking, the reason for that is simple and I've been trying to say it the whole time. The men do the most asking (which is actually synonymous with with saying that they ask more often) because it's expected of them, it's as simple as that. If women prefer to be asked, then it stands to reason that they would avoid asking if they could, thereby reinforcing the gender norm that men do most of the asking.

Is there something about 18-22 year olds that make them more likely to wait for men to ask them out, rather than the other way round? How does that age group make it biased? Are you saying that most of the women who do the asking are in their 50's? that sounds like bad news for young men (like me) who want someone in their own age group.


Some women claim that men expect them to not be too forward, you heard too often stories of the like "I have asked guys out before but I was rejected and told by them I was too forward" - and also they are more likely to get way dishearten by one rejection and stop trying, you hear stories like "I have asked out once a guy but he rejected me, so I will never initiate again".


Exactly, because of gender norms. That's what I'm talking about. Those women are perfectly correct that some men will reject them simply for being too forward for asking them out, for the same reason there will be some women who expect men to be the ones to ask them. It's a cultural gender norm that affects both genders. There's even a kind of a myth among those kinds of women that if a man doesn't ask them, he's not interested, which isn't true.


You two have missed the point. Also, please show me these men who will reject women who ask them out because, by definition, the asking-out means the woman's too forward.