The Nice Guy Dileema

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Yes, but there is also another thing that women want from a man that doesn't seem to get discussed in these sort of threads. Many women also want men they can do things with. If whatever popped into your head when you read that last sentence was sexual, that's a hefty chunk of the problem, and it's something that can be addressed without creating a Mystery Man facade (or whatever the PUA stuff calls it).

When I say do things I mean non-sexual fun things. If the only thing you can possibly imagine doing with a woman is sex, you will get rejected unless you are amazingly handsome. If you are not so breathtakingly handsome, then along with emotional stimulation you must also offer fun things that you will do together. This is frequently just exactly what the confident man does. He is willing to dance with her, go to parties with her, go to concerts with her.

But of course nobody here is a dancing, party extrovert. And you would all be utterly miserable with a woman who is. You want a date but what would you do on this date? What would you do on any dates after that? If women are sensing that a date with you will go literally nowhere, that's a big chunk of the problem. Not every woman is a dancing partyer. So what would you do on a date with a fellow introvert? What would you do on a date with a woman who says, "I'm not really into the club scene?" These women exist but you do have to offer them something.


You can't ever expect a "yes" from a woman who greatly enjoys all the activities you loathe and will never do. Why would she want to spend time with a man who will never do anything fun with her, ever? So you need to think about what fun things you would want to do with a woman (that are non-sexual) and then find out where women go who also like doing those things. Would you go on a hike? Would you go to a film festival? Would you go to a Ren Faire? Would you go to a car show? That's what people are trying to get you to think about when they say "look for a woman who shares common interests". If you can't think of anything fun you would do on a date except sex, then that right there is the problem. Women really can tell this. Envision a date. Envision what non-sexual things you would do together. That is the vision a woman must share with you for you to be compatible. No amount of "I'm a nice guy" makes up for her envisioning sitting on the couch watching you play Halo until you are ready to have sex with her. If that's what she thinks you want to do with her, she will say no.

You don't have to be a "bad boy". But you do have to offer something other than the promise that at some point you will grab her breasts. "Nice" in a vacuum isn't actually anything. You can be "nice" while sitting on the couch playing Halo (or whatever game). But women don't want to spend their fleeting youth watching you do that. So offer something else.

edited to add; if you read this entire post and recoiled because you think that I'm telling you to "play games", the answer from women will always be "no". If you think that doing something fun and non-sexual with a woman is a head game, stick to hookers. But if you could actually envision yourself on a hike, at the beach, in a little cafe etc. with a woman then envisioning dates might be helpful to you.

Last edited by Janissy on 31 Aug 2010, 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's just it though... I can't. The same thing holding me back from asking out that cute-looking girl across the room also prevents me from making any real good friends on anything more than a professional or associative level. All but one of my friends I made in high school age or earlier (the exception being my ex, whom i met shortly after starting college), and all friends were made by effectively forcing me into socialization, whether through a class or a church group. That worked well in my childhood, but now I'm in college where you really don't have to associate with anyone for anything more than group projects, while I've stated repeatedly that my church is largely lacking in my age group. It's not just that my friends are non-existent, but now also my opportunities. I'm too shy and afraid to just go out there, wherever "there" is, of my own accord. So unless someone cares enough to throw me headfirst into a crowd of friendly 20-somethings, I'm probably going to be alone for a long time...

well.... if you've already decided that you can't do it, then..... well, you surely can't do it. there's no advice anyone can give you that will change that - you've already determined your own future.

a personal example - i decided i can't drive.... so i will never be able to drive. lots of aspies drive, but i gave up because it was too hard for me. so i wrote my own future. i limited myself.

you are limiting yourself as to what you are capable of with making friends. you have already decided that it is not possible.

I wonder if at least part of the "nice guy" phenomenon might be caused by women letting rejected men down gently, as it were. As an example, some months ago I proposed a date to a female acquaintance who then rejected me with what boils down to "you are kind, but...". This came as a surprise to me as I do not really consider myself to be especially kind: just average but laced with introversion, conditioned mistrust, insensitivity and tactlessness (the usual, I suppose), oh, and a tendency to argue. I did not believe it and it did not really bother me, but it seems likely that for many (especially for those who care more about being rejected) the superficially complimentary part would help them feel good about themselves and act as a counter to the rejection part (as intended, no doubt, in letting them down gently). "Well, at least I'm a nice guy," perhaps?

If the creeps, wimps, bores and, especially, "chivalrous" types (buying love/sex for "good deeds") are continually told that they are "nice" through rejection then they may start to believe it, especially if they are emotionally affected. Then of course a self-sustaining meme might develop with a culture around it telling men that if they are rejected then they are too nice, or some such thing.

So, do the four aforementioned overlapping groups of men often get responses telling them that they are nice, even if they are not especially? Enough to explain the "nice guy" meme?


(All of this is NOT, of course, to say that I would necessarily not have wanted to be let down gently; it is just an idea.)

heh no 'nice guys' have ever felt entitled to a relationship with me.

Janissy has a point. I think a lot of guys on here, especially the younger ones, want that "hot girl" that every other guy wants. Getting over that fantasy is the first step. I'm not saying date someone you have absolutely no physical attraction to, but pay attention to the book-ish girl that isn't a model but isn't ugly either and you might have things in common with her.

I like the way it's summed up, that is a process I can identify with. It is important to remember a couple of things about rejection,

1.) Anything you do to retaliate the rejection will likely backfire in addition to voiding your "nice guy" status
2) There is no kind of logic that will convince them to change their minds

in other words, no means no, unfortunately I know this from experience.

Before you even make it to the rejection-part, you have the option of selecting who you approach carefully. Seeing how an AS diagnosis strongly implies lower social aptitude and that bars and clubs are highly social places, it might be a better idea to find a better setting.


It's really hard to describe how to actually deal with the rejection itself. The strategy I use is to picture the person as a drill sergeant or a gym coach, I'm just grateful to take their "no" and get away before any real trouble starts. But grateful is my only option, not resentful because walking away resentful every night just isn't fun or emotionally healthy and it may contribute to a negative perspective that can carry over to other areas of life. Your strategy may differ.

I stick to online dating sites. While you don't get the selection you would in real life, you have the advantage of talking to the woman on the computer and/or the phone and finding out if you should even waste your time with her.

What about the Shy, well adjusted man? Does he not get a say?

On a less serious note, I always thought this was an awesome way for a shy man to get the girl:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1-0rBfFMz4[/youtube]

I guess if you are too shy then you aren't quite well adjusted enough, because you're too shy.

Shyness and caution lead to inaction. But shyness and caution are consequences.
Not of being invalid people, but of being valid people who don't have the same social language as others.

Even people with diagnoses may not have realised how much that contributes to problems, and anyone unaware of AS for much of their life definitely wouldn't have done. But once you do realise, you can begin to understand that your inaction has a cause. That same cause has had the same impact for a great number of people - so it is not anything specific about you, apart from what you have in common with everyone else here, which gives you a need to be shy and cautious.

Whatever it is that you perceive to be your social deficit, it is not as personal as you think, since we all share it.

So - how to be less shy and braver?

Well, the social network which is so difficult to be part of has one factor which can work to our advantage - social people like to talk and communicate, so if you can be less shy and give others the opportunity to communicate, at least they have the skills to do so. If you choose to approach people, they are used to socialising.
If we can learn appropriate ways to give other people the chance, perhaps they will do the same to us.

Was she good
Looking at all? Or was she a fatty trying to
Validate herself by dumping you?

are you speaking from experience? oh no, i guess not. silly you.

Would you rather I validate Toads pity ploy? That won't help him at all.

yes.

Janissy,

I admire your realistic viewpoint, and the way you are exceptionally tactful in the way you have replied to me via this post. But like I have said in yet another reply to another user, my whole intention for using the Mystery Method is NOT to gratify myself sexually, or to seek out a girl to engage in sexual acts with.

Like I said, I'm not interested in pursuing sex, I'm interested in meeting women and trying to be friends with them, to the point where if the opportunity presents itself where I can date a gal, that it might be feasible. I don't plan on being a boring, simple minded individual who only thinks strictly in terms of sex and my own ambitions, I'm an interesting person who has a lot to share.

The Mystery Method is merely a means to an end. The problem I see with guys, particularly slightly autistic guys, is that have trouble opening up to women and introducing themselves. They have trouble with "A", but I'm sure that some of them could do well will "B" and "C".

In short, them have trouble building attraction, which is the first step in getting a woman to notice you. If given the opportunity and the right social skills, they could easily do the last to parts- Build Comfort, and eventually get involved in romantically, like this:

Attraction --> Build Comfort --> Romantic Involvement

You can't build comfort if you haven't first made the woman interested in you to the point where she is attracted to you. Likewise, you can't have romantic involvement unless you appear attractive to a girl. Everything relies on attraction, it is the first step to the other phases, and the last for most guys who fail at it. So I see nothing wrong with the Mystery Method if it gets women interested in you. You can be yourself and pull it off, you just have to know what to do.