"too intelligent"

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Yeah, that's REALLY jake. It shouldn't be that way and as I've said before, the fact that people would really rather just put the animal side first and feel the need to be as they are with stuff is aggravating. As for guys actually being intimidated by intelligence though, I think the only thing where I can see it having its merits is that lots of women and especially attractive women, no matter how attractive, how much money, or how much talent they have, only seem to date up and a lot of times it will make a guy feel insecure because he feels like she could easily say "pfff, I could do way better than this" and be off. Its definitely not a valid excuse when your dealing with someone who's actually a good person and who doesn't operate like that but I think lots of guys have been burned so often by all that that it's almost impossible to fathom a woman who can be with a guy who's more average or less talented.

On your arts and talents though, if you've gotten back into em then I'd say just push that. Personally I plan to, as soon as I can, get back into music once I have my last few weeks of college taken care of, have more money rolling in, and can have all the means I want to actually make the beats exactly the way I want to. From what you've had to say you sound like you've got a lot going for you as well as a lot of substance, and it would be a pitty if anyone hid their light - especially with as much potential as a lot of us who can't fit in because we're too intelligent and/or when the norms find our personalities too far beyond their grasp and just write us off.

Lol, I'm really starting to think that life's way too short to waste worrying about the opposite sex and if anyone will ever come through (and for those of alternative lifestyles I supposed that would be true for the same sex as well) - if you can't find a guy who's worth your time or who can actually like you for having as much of a personality, your probably better off and will be a lot happier just doing your thing even it means dying single rather than being in a place where you feel boxed in, can't be your true self, and have to live dissatisfied like that untill your whole life's passed by and you missed out on most of the things you wanted. That's how I'm thinking of it for myself these days and even if it means I technically failed as an animal and never gave any offspring, so be it - this entire system sucks anyway and I really don't want to be responsible for putting any more people like myself into it.

guys who dont value your inteligence are not worthy of even being you friend.. end of story..

I think ego can certainly take a part in why people might feel intelligence is unattractive, but luckily not all guys are like that. If you've found that other artists are more to your liking, then stick to them. Since they on the same level as you, they will appreciate your worth much more than some of the other fellows you've been seeing. Also, from what little experience I've had working with artist-types, I've found they're generally more liberal minded than the rest of society. So, for the most part, they are less likely to have a sexist attitude to relationships.

Actually, there is a point. If a person has had bad experiences with the opposite sex in the past, then it's probably far more time and energy-efficient for them to disqualify themselves in the future. Then they can turn their attention to those they feel worthy of, people of lesser stature who are more likely to reciprocate. It's not a fail-proof way of screening out people, but it works most of them time.

Are you doing a reasonably good job of supporting yourself financially? If not, then this may be offputting to men who want to see you as an equal.

i.e. if you are not financially independent/capable, then men may presume that you WANT to be in a dependent/submissive/subordinate position or that you are required to accept it. This will then attract those men who want a subordinate, and repel those who do not.

Also men may have difficulty in reconciling the contradiction between poor financial status and strong intelligent equal woman.

Myself, I am somewhat turned off when a woman is failing to support herself reasonably well because I do not want a dependent or subordinate. I want an equal or better. Woman with poor financial status makes me think "ugh, dependent/subordinate" (unless she is a uni student currently. Starving students are fine because it is only temporary and they are working hard towards success).

I'm already their equal.. and I meant 'subordinate' as in men either wishing that I was so stupid that I might magically turn into a dutiful vagina on life support for them, or men who dismiss my opinions and want me to agree with everything they say even when they are so obviously wrong. These men are attracted to me because I'm pretty and more importantly look naive and therefore potentially compliant. I am intelligent enough to know the difference between these kind of guys and the ones you are talking about so my financial status is not an issue.. if it were I would've mentioned it in my first post.

Last edited by riley on 20 Jun 2006, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Might be the old 'breadwinner' expectation as well.. I've been in the position where my partner was scared of me upgrading.. I got tired of the guilt trip and found it suffocating.

I intend to.. thankyou for the extra encouragment.

I'll be looking forward to downloading some samples [I should have a new PC by then.. atm I'm out of room].

Agreed.. as for the norms.. there are alot of people who have lived and died and left nothing of themselves behind [aside from genetics] at least we can. The media constantly tell us that a credit card will buy us happiness.. our creativity can give how ideas and ourselves a certain kind of immortality. I don't care how awkward I am, single or depressed.. even if how broke I get- at least there's a possibilty of connecting with someone three hundred years in the future through my paintings, just as musicians can be heared or writers read. In this context I don't really mind not fitting in in the here and now.


They are few and far between [born artists] but you're right.. I'll just have to find some in RL. At present I don't have many RL friends that 'get' me either so maybe I should just address that instead of thinking about romance.

You say that you are already their equal, and that you are intelligent enough to know the difference, however these are irrelevant to the point that I was trying to make.

I will use myself as an example. I am the sort of guy who will either treat you as an equal, or not date you at all. You mention that you dislike the kind of man who wants a naive girl. Naive girls drive me _nuts_, they are definitely not the sort I would date. I like street-smart women.

So I am the sort that would treat you as an equal. That puts me in a position to tell you why my sort will avoid you. If we see that you are not managing to support yourself financially, and you do not have a good excuse such as being a uni student, then we will presume (perhaps incorrectly) that you wish to be a dependent/subordinate, and we will be repulsed by this, and we will not want to enter into a relationship with you.

The point is, failing to support yourself financially repulses the men who want an equal, and attracts the men who want a subordinate.

Doing a good job of supporting yourself financially is important if you wish to attract and keep a man who will treat you as an equal.

Your point is not relevent to the ones I have already made. It had already been discounted before you even mentioned it.
Again:

Why did you feel the need to make the same point even though I said it is NA?

Again.. the topic at hand is about how most men [most of society] expects women who look a certain way to act a certain way [this is impacted by the fact that society does not like non comformity]. Ex. Many people assume that cute blondes with big tits are probably stupid.. the ones I've known are indeed NOT stupid but it wouldn't matter if they split the atom.. they would still probably get spoken to like morons. This is called a stereotype.

Perhaps you make the mistake of assuming women are naive based on their looks so avoid them thinking they are not your 'equal'. Unless you are a psychic or go through prospective mates' handbags while they're in the bathroom you wouldn't have a clue what they do for a living.

No it doesn't. ..'why' you ask?:

What you would see is an unknown woman with nothing specific that would indicate her financial status. This woman attracts men who couldn't give a crap about her status as they are assuming her 'gentle' looks may mean she has a 'gentle' and compliant personality. Didn't I say this before?

Still not sure why you think this point is relevent. I've been talking about how some men judge women on their looks. The only way you could find out if an unknown woman was a uni student, poor or successful would be to ask her first.

I like how you've now weaved the two of them together as if they directly effect eachother. Real subtle. They don't. Some men just want to get layed by a pretty girl.. the whole "she's not gullible enough to take the line" thinking creates disapointment as their motivations are pretty transparent from the get go. It's probably why drink spiking is so popular these days.

I wasn't originally talking about relationships either. To prevent further repetitions: I was talking about the day in, day out RL frustration created when people expect me to fulfill a certain stereotype.. and the consequences I have to endure for not doing so. I hope I have cleared up any misunderstandings.

Lol Riley, that's why I tend to go for innocent cute rather than writing them off - intelligence and a good degree of free thought comes from that direction, the only thing that sucks is they'll sometimes be almost too cocky to get all that closed to as an aspie at least.

The only other thing I'm wondering about with what your saying, I've just gotta ask this - do you lean on your 'human' instinct (ie higher self, spiritual self, societal self) much more than your animal (basic evolutionary instinct driven)? I think when your averaging too much more than 50/50 and aren't being base enough or are too separated from the frey it seems like the ultimate attraction killer and by my estimates it seems like most people out there range from 50/50 to 60% animal/40% human, the bell curve being what it may be. The problem is the more animalistic and basic a person gets the more and more compatability they get or at least people 'get' them much more readily. If you start heading toward the 70 to 80% human side your alienating lots of people with every step you take. I know it's hard not to do that if thats your fundamental drive but then again really drilling yourself at looking at the whole dating scene through the lense of evolutionary psychology and seeing people as animals first and people second will help a lot in terms of having it all make sense - yeah, it feels like your boiling everything sacred out of it but it seems like society has a very one track mind and even that makes a lot of sense if you look at things from the flipside of what your used to.

I think that you are incorrect to discount the effect of your ability to support yourself financially.


I said that naive girls drive me nuts. Obviously they do not drive me nuts merely by me looking at them. It is what they SAY and do that drives me nuts. For example, reading astrology columns to me.


I simply ask them, and they tell me. Duh.


And then I talk to her, and get to know her a bit better, and if I suspect that she is not doing a reasonably good job of supporting herself financially, then I lose interest in having a relationship with her. (Unless she is a uni student or other acceptable explanation for her situation.)


I was branching out from the original topic.


I think the problem here is that you are interpreting my usage of the word "attracts" as a purely physical/appearances meaning, whereas I meant it more generally.


Discussions often branch into other areas. There is no law against it.


And I was branching out from that by saying that one method to help with increasing your amount of association with men who want an equal is to do a reasonably good job of supporting yourself financially.

Because if you are failing to achieve that self-sufficiency, then men who want an equal are more likely to see you as a dependent, and then they become less interested in associating with you.

Some may even go so far as to treat you as a subordinate because of your lack of self-sufficiency. In some cases, you may have presumed it was because of your appearance when in reality it was your situation. Whereas if you were doing a good job of supporting yourself financially, then they would be more likely to treat you as an equal.

Furthermore, for the type of men who treat you as a subordinate because of your appearance, if he discovers that you are not doing a good job of supporting yourself, the effect will probably be exaggerated even more.

Are you trying to piss me off? My finances are not relevent to my looks. I'm not surprised you think I'm 'incorrect' to discount your point.. obviously you think you can better access the life experiences than I can. Again. It's NOT about my finacial status. How many times do you want me to say this? I mean you said: "Are you doing a reasonably good job of supporting yourself financially? If not, then this may be offputting to men who want to see you as an equal." First it was a question.. I politely said it is NA with an explanation [I should know] yet again you still have the gall to tell me I'm incorrect?! It's MY LIFE not yours so unless you think you have a better grasp of my own personal experiences I think you better pull your head in.

Bollocks. You didn't 'branch out'.. you've been arguing against my points.. inferring it's MY fault with this ridiculous theory that I'm attracting sleezebags because I'm repelling 'your sort' with my financial status. ALL pretty, slim women attract sleezebags. Now if you were indeed 'branching out' you would not have been arguing against me. Logic dictates when you argue against someone's points you are opposed to them. Nice attempt at backtracking but I'm not buying it.

Unless you are talking about online [which I haven't been] all relationships begin with some sort physical attraction [aesthetics/body language].

I could have a million dollars in the bank and not meet an equal.. then again the financial status of someone wouldn't really be the first thing I'd be looking for in an 'equal'.

You said this before. I can read.. and I've also had male friends I've considered my equal.. however they didn't seem overly interested in how much money I have.

I'm so glad you are here to correct the way I view things..
You are wrong. Accept it.

You said this before.. but now it comes with a twist.. tell me.. how can people 'know' my situation before they meet me? If you are going to give me advice.. please don't base it on flawed assumptions about me. You are way off base.

How many times are you going to ask me if I'm poor Emp? You aren't very good at being subtle. My financial stutus is not relevent and is non of your business. Stop asking. Hey.. maybe you could read the header of this thread.. it says "Too intelligent." The type of men who try treat me as a subordinate get resentful because I'm smarter than they are... not because I earn more or less. Some men can't handle this as traditionally males are supppose to be superior and so it damages their ego. I know this and have not 'presumed' the wrong thing.
Now.. I'm going to ask you again to please not contradict my own experiences by adding your own interpritation of them. It's presumptious and antagonistic.

Last edited by riley on 23 Jun 2006, 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean but I have a knack for reading people. I kind of 'feel' their energy. Sometimes it's neutral.. occasionally romantic but usually prededory [there is a difference]. I'm always annalising everything but I honestly believe that the assumptions made about me are actually cultural rather than natural. This really annoys me as I wonder why some are so easily swayed by media etc. Men are taught these stereotypes and it seems the majority of people accept these things as fact without question. The people left over are the minority.. the reason I'm not always attracting them is because there aren't that many around.

I can read people too for the most part and vibe them up but even then, I never trust my readout because too many people have a knack for being two-faced so usually while I don't completely discount that readout I usually tend to really taken with a grain of salt unless I see their actions back it up - that can take a few weeks to a month of knowing them sometimes. Unfortunately I can't speak for most guys because while I can get along with a lot of them pretty well and while I see a lot of them talking about the physical like it's everything I also see where a lot of my friends are real tongue & cheek with that kind of thing where it seems like they are about that but they're even more about personality, maturity, and intelligence - just that its not the socially correct thing to say your into unfortunately and a lot of em are used to being dissed by women (they'll stop calling them, get cold or start ignoring them) the second they let on that its what they see in them and want. You might want to read or listen to some of Dave DeAngelo's stuff on dating, the dynamics of the scene, and why people do what they do. Chances are it will righteously offend you a LOT, it did to me for a minute - unfortunately you also have to realize that whether or not something offends you doesn't mean it isn't the reality of things (I take it you know that but still, sometimes its tough for most people - guy or girl, to put emotion in the back seat on certain issues and take it all in at face value and it does take a reminder to self). The way its explained, people are torn between their morals and behaviors that actually teach them to be good people and then just base sheisty self-serving animal instinct. Most parts of life such as how you treat your family, your friends, get a job and treat your customers of coworkers - is common sense and straight foreward in that treating someone the way you want to be treated will work. The dating scene is where you almost have to scrap everything you know and completely rework everything you've been taught. The reason people who are used to being good people and not playing games or being two-faced are so bad at getting into relationships or staying in them is because attraction and maintenance of attraction, unfortunately, is animal instinct driven and you have to deliberately play games to a point just to keep most people attracted - very heavily within the first 10 dates and you can slowly let off and be who you really are but you still have to throughout the relationship show little bits of that. People ride on self-proclaimed 'nice guys' or 'nice girls' and try to write it off as a manipulation scam because they don't understand these dynamics themselves and either haven't had a problem in these areas or learned their way out of it but never learned why it was a problem. That nice guy-nice girl problem doesn't even just inherently come from being nice per se but from being too straight-foreward, no BS, being too far divorced from animal instinct (being more human than animal to an extent which society makes unhealty just by how it works) and one of the biggest culprits for getting someone that far off point on the animal side at least is intelligence - as kids we see people acting stupid and we dismiss it, we choose not to act that way ourselves, we go on through life and while we get rewarded from some angles on dismissing that we also get beat on by people who are way on that other end and we just take it that they're irritated for us because we're setting the bar higher than they want to go. The problem is that as we get older and as the dating scene comes along, we're still dismissing it while those other people are getting to be more and more successful because, unfortunately, they have it where they're at and its making them successful whereas we're still writing off what they're doing. I don't think I'd ever sell myself out for who I am, I couldn't, I don't think you'd want to if you could either, but we have to understand that the dating game only works for people who can at least get themselves back down to basics in a way to where while they aren't compromising themselves they are learning those skills which the dynamics of are rooted in the irrational and in pure instinct, emotion, etc.

From what your telling me about your own situation I really can't tell what's going on because I'd have to actually meet you and see what you are or aren't doing (and for most people the real culprits of whats pushing them out is stuff they aren't aware of). The reason I"m giving you that advice is because you do say your very intelligent, at least from what your saying your much more about being a decent human being and persuing higher things (which is great, I'm there with you) - unfortunately those things can be a pitfall if you tell yourself that your going to be who you are, not work on playing the games or follow the media, and that people will just accept you for who you are. You can stick by your principles and tell yourself you'll never bow down to what other people are doing, that's fine, but then again I'd recommend that more if you need it that much to where you'd really be happier dying single than with someone - odds are that's how it would go.

I don't know how old you are, I'm guessing late 20's early 30's, I'm 26 and probably a little younger but I've still learned a lot of lessons and my own experiences with feeling that way I've learned a major lesson from watching my friends, watching the world arround me pass me by, and it's that if you have really high principles about who you are that you aren't willing to bend its definitely true that the kind of person who will accept you for that is very rare and in the real world I can almost guarantee that in my own case by the time I find miss right she'll be married to someone else and if I don't work on my game, several miss rights will pass me by because even though she sized me up with a lot of interest and liked who I as I just couldn't be smooth enough to hold a good game up, I didn't talk to her basal/attraction side, too much to her intellect, and she'd just get disinterested and walk. I'd definitely still encourage you to do what make you happy, do the art, persue your interests, and if you tend to have your emotional states and inner self in a higher place detatched from all the corruption of things that's great - but it needs to have it's time and place and the only way to really get the best of things is to draw a dychotomy, have that be one side of yourself and the social player as another half - they can peacefully coexist as long as either side knows when to butt out when the other should be in effect. I look at a lot of my guy friends who are all into riding sportbikes, cars, macking on women, going to the bar, and while they're definite guys when they're out you can tell if you've talked to em for a while that they also have the side that we do as well as far as that higher emotional self that's on better things of better substance - again though, they know the time and place and know that they have to play it both ways because that's just how life is, that's how the world is, and those are just a couple of many layers a lot of people out there have to their personalities.

Hope all that didn't get too abstract or preachy even, I try to fight myself on that kind of thing, but its a tough thing to explain and a lot of it is getting the emphasis in the right places.

btw, the reason I even bother writing and explaining all that is you do seem like a good person, like me you do seem like you want to know the real truth on things, and while I wouldn't claim to say I've got it 100% on I'd like to think I've got a few pieces down right. I know I went years of my life where people couldn't get through to me and it was mostly the level they explained it from, I guess I'm just trying to explain it to you the way I would have for myself just because - I get the feeling that for people like us things have to be drawn up in a way that really makes sense for our subconscious minds not to just reject it and blow it off - that tends to make us slow learners in the areas of things where its supposed to be all on feel, instinct, and the cerebral side of things is supposed to be left out because good explanations that actually seem to hold any water or depth are really hard to come by.

I shall explain this mystery for you, but you will not like it. He meant this:

"If you got married, would you be willing to give up painting as your sole or main source of income? Ofcourse you can still keep your painting as a hobby (obviously), but if you want to keep it as your main occupation, it earns little money, so basically you are expecting your husband to support you financially (and take most of the mortgage burden when purchasing a house), and that is unfair and selfish of you. It seems to me that you just want to stay at home and relax and paint, while your husband is working hard to pay the majority of the mortgage repayments. And then if you ever divorced, you would probably demand half of everything, despite having never paid more than a quarter of a mortgage repayment."

So his question was perfectly legitimate. However he may have worded it poorly.

Naive girls drive me nuts.

Last edited by emp on 24 Jun 2006, 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.