The line between confidence and arrogance

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Here's a possible example: a stand-up comic needs to be confident. A heckler needs to be arrogant.

If he's 'too shy to make eye contact' and 'can't speak clearly much', then I don't see how he is confident. He's confident in his area of expertise, yes, but at large? No. As to his appearance, it depends what he wants to play. If he wants in on the mainstream, meat market dating game, he'll probably have to buck his ideas up and make an effort to conform to the rules, just like everyone else does. If he recognises he may be a more specialist interest, as is what he's looking for, then that's where he should focus his efforts.

Though oddly, bad posture aside, you've described one of the types a friend consistently goes for (well, went for, having settled down and had kids with such). So our scientist may not be as s**t out of luck as is supposed.

I think confidence is radiating capability and self-assurance. But it's an earned self-assurance and togetherness. In a sense, it's something like maturity, not being caught up in the need for approval from everyone. This cannot but come across. But it's not like confidence on its own is enough to be attractive. Confidence is attractive, but it isn't the whole of attraction.

The emotionally young and stunted (male and female) confuse arrogance with confidence (both in projection and observation). I see this every day.

Being able to get girls at a moment's notice is not the end-all in life.

I used to think that it was the end-all. Girls picked up on that, and avoided me like the Plague as a result. They saw my desparation. They didn't like it.

The scientist should revel in his accomplishments and in his genius, without rubbing them in somebody else's face. While he may not get the "model-looking" person, he still has a chance with some women who look past his "baby face," shyness, etc. The scientist should also try to develop interests beyond his particular field of study.

There are some women who would jump at the chance to be a maternal figure to this scientist. Generally, though, if a guy shows desparation, the maternal instincts shut off, replaced by irritation. I don't know why that is--but this has been my experience.

^ "Girls picked up on that"

Are you sure they all have this mysterious super power?

This "women can detect vibes" and "mind reading" thinking which is not only common among men, but also among women (thinking themselves to have this power but they don't really); all influenced by the same media talk. It is dishumaning women into some sort of alien beings.

Come on, I don't buy into all this "pickig up on vibes" and "negative energy" talk. This is all paranatural and pseudoscience mumbo jumbo.

Unless you were doing actions that obviously reveal desperation, like flirting with every single girl for example .... then yeah, they will see you flirting with everyone - it is something visible, not some mysterious energy or vibe.

It is for same reason I don't buy Amity's concept of internal confidence and how it can radiate attractivness externally... again this is all Vibe/enegy jumbo mumbo psycho armchair talk.

What's real are things we can detect them with our human senses, what we hear and what we see.
Hence why me and rdos (at least this time) are talking sense - all others aren't much.

If you’re desperate, you might as well assume they can smell it a mile away. After all, if you did manage to attract a woman, it’d be only through deceit, since she doesn’t want to be with a desperate man. Better be honest and leave them alone.

It happens. Quite how is a matter of interest and investigation, not to be dismissed because you can't fit it into a narrow notion of 'observable'. Perhaps body language, perhaps scent, perhaps the tone and cadence of a voice and even the choice of words, likely a combination of things. No need to invoke (or dismiss it as) 'paranatural' ideas, and no need to limit what the brain picks up and acts on to a vulgar empricist take on direct, conscious observation through sight and sound.

interesting you mention rdos and 'what we can see and hear' - yesterday he said:



The bit I've underlined is a theory, and entirely unobservable. Indeed, where we seek to observe, we simply don't see this outcome - where it occurs, it is an aberration, an outlier.

Odd you talk of 'dehumanising' women - it seems to me there is a tendency among a lot of the 'down on my luck, it's just me and my chip tonight' men around here to do just that, to turn women into terrible, brutal, creatures driven to dismiss anyone who isn't unfeasibly rich and handsome, the one bone they may be thrown is that they are but the bearers of a fierce Darwinian drive, and so it may not be fair to blame them. They can't help it, after all.

This fantasy of a woman bears little resemblance to the behaviour of the great, great majority of women alive (ditto the picture this theory paints of men), but that doesn't seem to stop it. Who cares about facts when you've got a really comforting theory?

My philosophical/religious attitude is rationalist/empirical/atheistic.

I have NO belief in the "paranormal."

But I do believe guys and girls pick up on subtle things, perhaps even unconsciously.

One can "exude" confidence. One's "attitude" is of the utmost importance. I had to learn this the hard way.

"Body language" is of great importance, too.

I am one who is actually most irritated when the Paranormal is bought up.

Hopper, why are you including things rdos said in other threads that I may not agree with and why this:
"Odd you talk of 'dehumanising' women -"

Why is that?

You know what? I don't know what you are implying but I don't like your accusatory tone -
and I don't know if you are lumping me with these "down on my luck" men.

- you are annoying in malicious unclear way.
Either talk straightforward to me and tell me what's in your mind or bug off.

You have a good knowledge of history which I find esoteric (but I'm willing to learn), FOB.

There are women out there who value brains. They don't get into this evolutionary crap or whatever.

If you don't mention those social science studies on dates, and just hang out with a lady like a friend, you'd probably be okay.

That Muslim girl you mentioned seems intriguing in some way.

I include the thing from rdos to show he may not be the committed empiricist you suppose him to be, and what can happen when theory is relied upon at the expense of actual world observations.

I mention 'dehumanising women' because you did, and because the phrase reminded me of exactly what I described.

There is a tendency among a lot of men here to see women just how I described. To hold to a theory of women that simply does not bear out in the real, observable, factual world. I was drawing the two points you made - 'dehumanising women' and 'observable' - together, as that was where my mind went.

You often sound as if you feel down on your luck, though I wouldn't describe you as such.

I think I may have seen you make remarks about women similar to what I describe, but I lose track of just who has said what over the years, so I wouldn't swear to it or make the accusation. If I have seen you say such, I would have taken you up on it at the time, as I will do so if I see such in the future. If I want to take someone up on a point they make, I do it.

I don't find Boo doing too badly, either.

I think the girls find him okay but a bit persnickety.

Some girls like iconoclastic types (though I think Boo's iconoclasm is good, ultimately, in its ethical outlook). I think some girls would buy into that.

Others don't like arguments, though.

OK dear, whatever you want to believe is fine by me.

~~~~~~

Retrogamer you can practice being confident about the areas you are working on but not yet competent in and in the areas where you are close to mastery around people in general, find the balance for yourself. This practice might help you recover on dates if you make a social error while being yourself.

sometimes the difference between "confident" and "desperate" can be as simple as the kinds of jokes you make and at what moments / in response to what. to the perceptive listener, those little elements of humor and distraction betray your immediate intention and/or your mindset and attitude. if the perceived attitude is "this is unsatisfying, i want more", it will be a turn-off in most situations. if the perceived attitude is "i could be doing something else, but this is nice", it will be well-received in most situations

note the "i could be doing something else" part (not to be stated clearly, which may come across as pressure or arrogance, but still, subtly implied). it has two implications at once: "i am choosing to be here with you", which is flattering, but also "i may choose otherwise later on if you don't show any interest yourself", which urges the other person to take an active stance themselves. "if you want to keep being flattered by me, you need to show it". a degree of unattainability, even if only momentary

things work out when there's a mutual stroking of egos and cues that call for active participation. people are attracted to other people and things that make them feel good about themselves. but then if they don't need to earn it, they'll just expect more for free. the actual purpose of appearing more desirable in practice is to make the other person feel good about themselves through association with you. which means that, yes, desirability doesn't even have to have real substance (although that might be a problem later on. but still, you can always start with the superficial and develop substance from it as you go, if you choose to)

Not all areas can be showed off socially.

The only possible areas for what you suggest to him is some athletic activity (ie dancing), singing or playing a musical instrument - these can be shown in the right ambiance without looking boasting (ie. in a party).

But most areas can't be showed off like this, let's take programming for example, what? he would pull a laptop in the middle of a social situation and show them how well he codes?

I wouldn't recommend the OP to show off his gaming skills too...no, just no.

Even not all kinds of knowledge are entertaining for most people, in my experience, most people in social settings are not interested in learning or listening to encyclopedia-like type of knowledge or information.

Honestly, the only the things that I see people talk about in social settings are current events , celebs, tv shows, latest popular mobile apps, movies, work, mortgage, kids, travels, doctors and politics.

Never in my life but me, ever heard someone talking about science or history things in any social setting ever ...except with two guys whom I friend with and who are quite nerd themselves, but other than those two...no one really.

you don't need to show your actual knowledge (people usually won't understand it anyway, even in the off-chance that they might be interested). all you need to do is hint at it instead. show that you know more than the other person, but also show that you understand that they don't know (and don't need to know) as much as you do. in a nutshell: make witty thematic jokes involving the moment being shared with the other person

although that's not the only way. sometimes for example you can say how you arrived at a solution for a real-world problem (it doesn't have to be anything serious. could be just "choosing what to eat" or something like that) through analogies with things you're knowledgeable about (then if you can make it sound humorous, all the better). the other person may not understand what you're saying, but they can appreciate the result, which makes it relatable. the key is to find ways to include them while still showing how "it's your thing" and how it's good for something

Face of Boo, you are talking about short term social confidence to catch the attention (by showing off) of the person you are interested in, a tricky task for anyone, even more so for someone with social challenges, its not going to be enough to maintain their interest though.

I am talking about a long term realistic confidence, something that grows with time/effort, is beneficial to all areas of your life, and because it isn't fake it is attractive.

I think anagram and Amity are on the right track here.

How we conceive of a problem is part of the problem. It's worth taking time to think through the problem, trying different perspectives, before rushing off to find solutions.