Why do LTR's have to be so *serious*?

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I wasn't suggesting constantly rolling over each other out in public or around others...there is a middle ground lol. I meant like not even so much as holding hands, or putting an arm around each other or giving a quick kiss here and there(not like the making out sort). Obviously you don't want to overdo it in public or around people...but nothing wrong with people being able to see 'hey those two people are a couple it looks like'.

Well yeah I can see waiting for a time to see how things go and if a LTR is something you're interested in with that person before spreading the word your in a relationship. But yeah I feel like if it's being kept hidden past that point and both people just maintain totally different social lives without meeting each others friends or family or anything, than it is likely one of the people in the LTR is more or less ashamed of their S.O. I mean that is how I'd feel if my boyfriend was intent on keeping it 'secret' and never wanted to be seen with me around people.

Why would I? I have no interest in meeting her friends, it's her I want to get to know. I'm okay with only a small social circle so if I have enough friends at the time + her, why would I want to meet more than that?

I'd be forced to meet her family anyway at family events but I don't see anything wrong with nothing beyond introducing myself by name and then never bothering to speak to them again. But they'd probably expect me to do the polite thing and actually hang out and make small talk with them and such.

Again, why would I have any interest in speaking to or getting to know any of her family aside from her parents?

To find out what kind of person she is? Well, I can ask her parents about that.

In my opinion the people who normally know the most about you are your parents, if they've always been in your life.

For example whenever I question myself, who I am, etc. I ask my Mum. I'm always surprised at just how observant she is and how much she knows.

If there's anyone who knows you better than anyone else, it's someone who carried you, changed your diapers and raised you for 18+ years.

So her parents already serve that function, and if she ever needs a second opinion its her parents she can go to for advice over me, and perhaps her best friend too.

I already know though that most people want you to meet a lot of their friends and family for safety reasons.

I would want to be safe too but I don't see who else I'd need to meet except for her parents and best friend. Anyone beyond that is unnecessary, imho.

If she has a brother or whatever she could mention me and say I'm a nice guy but she'd tell him if I ever did anything wrong to her, which I wouldn't.

Or must I meet him myself and end up feeling intimidated by some guy who's gonna treat me with untrustworthiness for a long time before he warms up to me?

I already have severe anxiety, it just makes it worse knowing her father, brother, ALL 3-10 or more of her friends she's introduced me to, those cousins she introduced me to, that uncle, etc. are ALL keeping a watchful eye on me because I come across as 'off' to them even if I'm trying my best to be a decent guy.

If they hate me they could find any excuse that I'm 'bad' for her and convince her I am, and if SHE ends up being crazy/abusive any second she could go and say I did something wrong to her when I didn't and the I've got the whole damn family coming after me.

Relationships are f*ckin dangerous the more of her family and friends you meet.

A stupid ex threatened to get an older brother or cousin or something to hurt me when I didn't do anything wrong. I was genuinely scared and actually reported her to the school anonymous bullying website over that bullsh*t. I won't always have that protection though.

Again, keep in mind I'm bisexual so it's not like 'big scary male is saying he doesn't even want his girlfriends family and friends to meet him' because if I dated a muscular guy a lot stronger than me (very unlikely though, it'd be the other way round for me) I'd think the same thing.

Another reason is the very fact that her friends could say bad things about me and convince her I'm 'trouble'.

People on this forum have Aspergers, so we might come across as awkward or 'off' and even if we don't mean anything bad might still leave a negative impression on her friends accidentally.

Before you say "Well your girlfriend would probably be similar to her friends and if her friends judged you for how you look or if you're just a tiny bit different seeming or because of what kind of car you drive or the way you dress then that's her loss" but what if your girlfriend is very DIFFERENT from her friends but still influenced by their opinions?

Not only this, but what if her opinion of ME changes because of the way my family and friends are?

I'm very different from my family but most people will assume you've picked up a lot of things from your family.

So if a lot of your family were high school dropout substance abusing 'gangsta' acting types who spend their free time stealing cars and dope dealing, what could that say about me?

It's happened before that I've lost friendships over stuff like that and possibly a relationship too.

I have no issues with showing affection in public. Heck, even those train couples---who I totally admire and spoke very highly of---showed some form of affection toward their partner. All while still treating the non-coupled world with respect. It's the verbal circle jerk my friends were doing that I have a problem with. That and being gratuitously affectionate with your partner in front of the other couple. Both for the purpose of demonstrating your proverbial club membership to fellow members. It does the complete opposite of what it's intended to do: make the relationship look sincere, rather than more fake than Las Vegas.

I had the same feeling, only by proxy. Namely, when my friend told me he was going to have dinner with his girlfriend's entire family, I had a micro-panic attack. I know he's into all that "serious" stuff and actually likes it, but the moment I heard him say it, I knew that any and all fun in his relationship will hereby cease and desist. (Legalistic talk here, for the dark humor of it.) Don't get me wrong: I don't mind meeting the family. Heck, I learned how to build rapport with men by talking about sports and military stuff, and with women by using PUA-style humor. But again, once the family enters the equation, the relationship stops being fun and starts being "serious".

The problem is outrider that women (i dont know about men because im not one) do appreciate the opinion of their close friends and you refusing to meet her friends may cause alarm bells to her. My fiance met my friends on our second date because i knew they would be honest about what they thought of him. This wasnt as a judgement just to make sure I was safe and he was being nice to me (I met him online after all).

My fiance took ages (11 months) to introduce me to his friends and it really started to set off alarm bells as every time I mentioned his close friends he would snap at me. It turned out it was because when he is with his friends he is more silly and jokey and he was trying to be all manly and gentlemanly in front of me (which at the time I was starting to get fed up because he wasn't jokey and I am). When I saw his true self, how he is around his friends and not parents I fell in love with him even more and he has not try to act a certain way in the relationship since and just been himself.

although friends can be pain in the butts and cause problems there are benefits to introductions.

Also everyone acts different with their friends than they do with their parents

It could also make her hate me, could it not?

If seeing how your fiance is with friends made you like him more, than surely it can do the exact opposite.

And if your friends were the kind of people she hates and yet you become just like them around them? Hmmm...

I guess nothing can be done about it.

Of course being myself only ever got me dumped.

Better yet, what does it say about you if you have NO friends to introduce her to?

I have friends, I just don't live close enough to them so it's unlikely a girlfriend would ever meet them because even when I do see my friends it's usually to stay at their house and 'getaway' from my usual home life and is more of a personal thing than bringing a girlfriend along too.

Even better! She might think I'm ashamed to introduce her to them, maybe even think I'll be cheating on my 'getaways' to visit friends in another city/town and possibly go to bars with them for fun, even if I couldn't cheat even if I wanted to.

If she can't believe my word or my family that I'm a good, safe guy because they're more biased than friends, then I don't have any way she can trust me except for going by her own and her friend's judgement.

Anyway, I don't even know why I feel the need to complain about this - it appears I won't be getting a girlfriend anytime soon, as per usual aside from the wonderful, amazing happy total of 2 months in my entire 18 year life I've been in a relationship (have been in 2 short ones).

Outrider, I totally get where you're coming from, with your grievances about your girlfriend's friends. I know it seems like her friends can be a hindrance to you and your goals. Because oftentimes, they are. Social proofing, something or other. Or maybe they think you're an beta male (which is an automatic disqualifier in a woman's eyes), even though you got her to believe that you're alpha, by the means of whatever PUA method you can tolerate the most.

But you have to realize one thing: those friends were there before you came along. So you're not in the right to complain about them. It's not fairness or unfairness; they were simply there first. It's like buying a house next to train tracks, and then complaining about the freight train noise. Or worse, petitioning your city to stop those trains. After all, you could see the tracks when you chose the house. And tracks mean trains. Noisy trains. How often, is a matter of chance. But they will be there. Unless, of course, that rail line is abandoned, but those are rare in the US today. (Existing lines continue to be active, and past abandoned ones are now bike trails.)

While you're not in the wrong to have grievances in the first place, it's better to direct them at the woman who rejected you, or even at the human species at large, rather than at having to get along with her friends. Like in my own case, I direct my grievances at LTR's in general, and how ridiculously "serious" they are. And resolve them by avoiding them as much as humanly possible. I saw how my friends' LTR's are going, and I want no part of it.

That analogy isn't always accurate.

We don't always have a way of determining someone's social life before dating them, unless they're open about it, and considering I probably wouldn't be because I'd be ashamed to admit I have no real social life (and rightfully so, because it's the sort of stuff that gets you rejected and ghosted), I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite and expect her to tell me what kind of social life she has, now would I?

Sometimes that quiet guy at school or work could already have 10 friends so he's satisfied with not being social and just doing his work in class.

Other times there's that charming, funny person who seems social but has a very lonely and empty social life.

In fact, I'm an example of this; I'm the kind of guy you'd think has at least 2-3 close friends he sees frequently, but I don't. I have the close friends, I just can't see them often enough.

It's more like moving into a house you had no idea has Jumbo Jets flying just over it all the time.

Anyway, I have a very strong preference for extremely shy, quiet girls with a very small social life, for unrelated reasons (e.g. personal preference). Though, come to think of it, I guess this is related.

Personally, I'm Ambiverted and a combination of both Intro and Extravert.

Worst-case scenario, I end up with an Extraverted girl. I just don't see that working in the long-run even if I still find Extraverts fun.

I still understand what you're saying, though.

"Pals before Gals" and "Sisters before Misters" and all that.

Long-term trusted friends opinion > 'Some guy'.

I don't know, this all feels a part of a bigger problem for me - a lot of standards the vast majority of the general population apply to dating, I don't.

Ideally, I should have some say in the matter of how my own relationship goes, but the reality is my unconventional views will instead damage my chances.

Things like not interested in meeting a girls friends/minimal amount of family is just scratching the surface.

Like I already said earlier in this thread, I also would love a less serious LTR.

Like an FWB situation but with romantic love on top of it.

There's a solution there too, lol. First, find a small airport near your potential home. (There are many such airports in the US; this may be different in Australia.) Call them; give them your address, and ask them if any of their flight paths go over your home; they're required to tell you. They'll also tell if you other airports' flight paths go over your home as well, including those of major airports. (Major city airports may or may not have such a phone line, but I'm sure it'll be very busy.)

The LTR equivalent of "calling a small airport to learn about jumbo jets" would be Facebook. But possibly because I never knew Facebook at a teen, I hate it, I find it invasive, and I refuse to go near it. So I don't Facebook-snoop on my dates, either, to avoid acting like a hypocrite. In fact, I keep it mostly to be able to use Tinder and a few other apps.

Now, this part, I absolutely agree with you on. I also don't like the whole "meet friends and family" thing. You read my post about how I had a micro-panic attack when my friend told me about having dinner with his girlfriend's family; it just smacks of "seriousness". I only accept it due to the "moving next to train tracks" analogy. Even more so: as a man, you will be working the hardest to maintain your relationship. So it's only fair if you get input in what you're maintaining. It doesn't work that way most of the time, though.

I do have some encouraging news for you. At your age, you're in a far better position to find what you're looking for that I'll ever be. Women 16 to 18 are likely to be looking for something similar. A far cry from women my age, who are all in a huge rush to settle down, get married, and have babies. I'm even terrified of women ages 28 to 36 (the prime childbearing years in the US), and refuse to have anything to do with them beyond friendship. And unlike being dating partners, women in this age group are actually pretty cool friends.

Well, I have a mildly pleasant update. I took a month to observe how my friends act as couples. I noticed a rather unusual thing: that whole over-the-top, lovey-dovey, overly serious, borderline-insincere relationship theatre only happens when two or more couples are together. When it's just me plus one couple, it's like they're totally different people! Cool, laid-back, and even fun (although not to the extent they were when the men were single). I totally enjoy their company, and both girlfriends even warmed up to my quirky, rebel-like personality. One shares my interest in hot sauces; she even texted me a suggestion once or twice, and her boyfriend was fine with it. The other likes Israeli culture, and enjoys hearing stories of my trip there 10 years ago, and wants to go there too.

But the second multiple couples find themselves together in one group, all hell breaks loose. All intelligent conversations, even about movies and TV shows, go out the window, and the "serious LTR" theatre returns with a vengeance. Which was the reason for starting this thread in the first place.

I'm thinking it's some sort of a groupthink instinct, that only NTs have. Namely, a compulsion to put on this ridiculous theatre in front of the other couple, regardless of how bad it looks to the more rational-minded people. Or maybe it's code-switching, comparable to the kind immigrant kids engage in. Which is speaking English at school and their native language at home, both equally well. Or maybe it's a social ranking system they created: other couples are their equals, single women are worthy sidekicks, and single men are garbage.

^That's actually pretty interesting. I've never seen it happen with many couples in the room, but can't recall ever being out with two couples plus myself - especially not two couples who've only been together for a short time vs. several years+.

Maybe it's a subconscious form of competition, especially between the females? The good ol' one-up game.. "we're more in love with each other than you are," kind of BS.


Aside about PDA: I've never been one for PDA in the past due to social anxiety combined with the fact that I wasn't out as gay. Now I'm not anxious almost at all, ever, and I'm quite comfortably out and rarely conceal the fact that I'm gay, and tbh I kind of look forward to some of those PDA moments just to make people who are uncomfortable with it squirm in their homophobic skin. I'm not talking about "get a room" type PDA, but just the little things that indicate we're not just two male friends out and about, we're together and we're showing it regardless of what you think about it.

You must be hanging out with young people who haven't been together for very long. They're still in that honeymoon phase where everything is wonderful and rose-tinted and they have to demonstrate to everyone around them how happy they are.

That phase doesn't last. In other words, LTR's aren't really like that.

They're in their 30's, and they were together for about a year; they both got serious very fast, though. So it's even more perplexing that I keep seeing this behavior. It's still a bit insulting that their groupthink instinct is so strong, that it overrides the notion of common decency toward single people. I've been in relationships before, and I never acted anywhere near like that. Sure, I held her hand and such, but it was never turned into a theatre act.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. It must be an NT thing I'll never understand, like my ex-girlfriend's fascination with Hollywood gossip. Oh well. I'm glad I have multiple social circles, some more single-friendly than others.

^ Yeah I don't care for the over the top gushy crap, either. Kinda just makes me roll my eyes. I don't see too much of it in person ever since I'm not really around people like that.. but I see it on Facebook from a few people desperate for attention I guess. One of the worst offenders is my cousin.. posting all this crap like "I love you soooooo much <insert name of boyfriend> We're soul mates blah blah blah sooooo happy we found each other!!" which always makes me assume they must be having an argument or something if she has to affirm their loveydovey crap to the world like that.

Another possibility is just simple connection: no competition necessary. At this stage, the honeymoon happiness and dreams/hopes for the future are good common ground for the multiple couples.

This reminds me of a very alarming thing one of the girlfriends said: "Oh my god! I love being in a committed relationship. Plus the make-up sex feels so good every time!" (bolded for emphasis, not voice tone) Think about what make-up sex is: it happens after a fight. So if my girlfriend fought with me, I'd be so disgusted by her, that sex is the last thing I'd want to do afterwards. I'd probably be too busy either breaking up with her on the spot or planning to do so very soon, as well as looking into getting a restraining order. Also, when I take off my clothes, my wallet and cell phone become vulnerable to being grabbed and pilfered. Not a safe thing to do around someone I just fought with, who may try to get back at me.

Point taken. But why does being "in love" (notice the quotes), a couple's own private matter, turn into such a p*ssing contest between couples about how serious they are?! Why can't couples just have fun together---real fun, not "love" fun---without turning into soap opera characters? And NTs say we're the weird ones!