My opinion as to "nice guys finishing last" &

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^ that's a rather broad (and inaccurate) generalization. Women get love and sex.

Thats awesome! I wish I was a woman.

Me too....

I'm not a nice guy. There! I've admitted it.

I think someone else already said it but I would like to point out that 'nice' is very subjective. Nice behavior to one person may seem cold or rude to another. Also, what you see on the surface is not the whole person. My husband is a 'nice' guy but in some ways he is not nice at all. In some respects I think he can be a terrible person. But I'm sure from meeting him you would never think so.

If you think he's a terrible person why are you married to him? I don't mean for that too sound harsh, just curious.

And I take you're point about people having sides to their personality, some people probably think I'm a complete a**hole, others that I'm the sweetest person in the world. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

^ Exactly. I try to not step on any toes and make sure no one is mad at me. But there are many people who think I'm a complete jackass, I'm sure.

It has not to do with bad as evil and nice as goodness.



"Nice guy" = Introvert and unsocial

"Bad guy" = Socially extrovert and masculine.

a "Nice guy" can be bad while a "Bad guy" can be actually nice.

^ Oh.. if those are the definitions then I guess it's pretty obvious (and understandable) that socially adept people are more likely to get a date.

Case closed.

(Yeah right )

the term 'nice guy' get thrown around so much that it's a bad thing, and we don't know what being actually "nice" (in the good sense) actually means any more.

The problem here is that "nice guy" & "bad boy" are mother's terms being used to describe adults. It doesn't work since the roles of boys in society are different than the roles of men.

Good men lead & take charge.

Good (nice) boys stay out of trouble, keep quiet, & obey their mothers.

However, to a mother bad boys lead & take charge. They're often deifant & stubborn.

For an adult male to describe himself as just "nice" carries the connotation that he has not grown up to the point where he's learned to lead. He just knows how to please authority by not rocking the boat.

I'll have to disagree. My definition of a "nice guy" is a guy who doesn't treat women badly, exploit them, lie to them, is polite to them, treats them with respect, etc.

The Bad Boy stereotype that a lot of guys here think about isn't necessarily an alpha or socially successful male (that would just be a normal or high testosterone guy), but the kind of guy who is making unwise, risky choices in life (riding a motorcycle, not going to school, getting into fights, doing high-risk activities) that seem to appeal to the romantic sensibilities of certain women at a certain age.

"Oh, he's in a band, he's so XYZ!" "Oh, he's so funny and charming" (when you know for a fact that he in fact is a very negative person in his private life, loathes the same girls that worship him, and treats other guys like sh*t). Those kind of guys. The kind of guys who use women (sometimes multiple ones at once), tell them lies, cheat on them, and then throw them away. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with feeling bitter about this, and having been on both the "good" and "bad" sides, I can attest to the fact that some women seem to love misery. There's a certain allure in something that is "bad" for you, or for something that is rare or different from the norm.

What sucks for "good guys" is to know that you are making the safe, responsible and right choices in life, the ones that will help you live longer, fare better financially, and be in a position to someday provide for a family, and do get docked for it and ignored by your female counterparts (with similar goals) at a certain age. True, they'll come around eventually, but for a lot of the young guys here, it's little comfort to be alone on Friday night and see the girl that may someday be your wife getting wined, dined, and jerked around by a literal jerk. It's just the way things are, and nothing we talk about here will change that, but despite all my positive advice, I will not ignore this facet of dating for teens and guys in their 20s. All I can do is counsel that things will get better, and that they should keep on searching in order to find the women who aren't so easily brainwashed or taken in by creeps.

One of the reasons why women resent *nice guys* is because they see such men as trying to Manipulate women who are NOT sexually attracted to them into getting in the sack with 'em. Treating someone well and being friendly towards them is not going to make you attracted to them if they dont feel those feelings spontanously. For the last 5 years or so Ive come across countless female bloggers and internetizens expressing their frustration with guys whom they're not attracted to befriending them as means of making these women feel obligated to sleep with those guys. And if I were a woman Im sure that Id be pretty annoyed as well and if a guy was too persistent I might tell him directly that Im not interested in being anything more than friends.

You make a valid point as well, you can't force attraction or love when it is obviously not there to begin with. Doing so would not be realistic and it would not be true to yourself. No one in this life wants to live alone, except for a small minority, and the worst emotion you can feel on this earth is isolation/loneliness, the feeling that you don't matter to anyone. I use this in the romantic sense talking about "bad boys/good guys" routine.

I would be a huge hypocrite if I denied doing this myself, but I do have somewhat unrealistic expectations for whom I date, some of which involves my mate to be physically attractive (not a super model beautiful, but cute to attractive), and other criteria as well. There is always some flaw, whether minor or major. I think a lot of women are very much the same way as I am, idealistic and unrealistic. I'm not saying they should date every nice guy they meet, but I'm saying that a lot of them probably go after superficial qualities which attract them, like arrogance, confidence, playfulness, as opposed to shared interests and similar tastes.

Physical attractiveness will always be the main focus of male attraction, most of us, if not almost all of us, seek it primarily before anything else instinctively. Things like personality, shared interests, charisma, these things are secondary for a lot of guys.
A lot of women seem to be somewhat opposite of this, they seek personality traits like arrogance, confidence, or assertiveness in guys, although physical attraction has a hand in this as well. However a guy who has strong personality traits can be attractive to a woman if he's decent looking because women, as psychology states, view love as "emotional connection" with a male and thus strong emotions are attractive.

I will be perfectly honest, the reason why "nice guys" (who are shy and often reserved in mannerism) get so frustrated is because guys who are arrogant, over confident, or extremely playful tend to attract attractive females and get the attractive girls, whom ALL guys are extremely attracted to. That leaves us girls we are not very physically attracted to, and thus we are not interested in them romantically, even if they have interesting personalities or are kind. Yes, it is the height of superficiality, I won't lie about it, but it does suck for guys like us because we are naturally attracted to beautiful women and desire them.

Like I said, males are attracted and desire beautiful looking females, females we find less attractive we have as "friends" instead. It is like a guy who orders a pizza for a party. As soon as the pizza arrives, all the guests quickly go for the pizza, shoving people out of the way so they can get a good slice of pizza. After all the good slices of pizza have been taken, there are only tiny pieces of pizza left to eat that are not enough to fill a person up. The people that didn't rush over to eat the pizza go up to it and see the pizza isn't really anything they want, and in disappointment and disgust, they decide to go without than to have a slice of the so-so pizza now. You get the analogy, women aren't slices of pizza, but the same principle still applies. We don't like feeling shorted, but hey, that's how it goes.

The same principle probably applies to women as well, but then again, I don't know, I'm not a woman.

^ Wow... If that's really how you feel about it then I do actually pity you (not trying to be condescending) and anyone else who may happen to feel this way as well.

I myself would never shove anyone out of the way to satisfy my own selfishness and I would be perfectly happy with the smaller slizes of pizza that were left. Maybe that makes me crazy or stupid. *shrug*

Ouch -- I'm sure this just made 100 guys here that much more paranoid about coming across as a creep.

My question to those women would be how are men in general to know who is or isn't attracted to them if they don't get to know them first? That seems rather a Catch-22, especially here on the Aspie forum where a lot of the people have a hard time picking up ambivalent social cues. Short of befriending women we are attracted to, what other recourse do men have to not come across as manipulative? And mind you, the "bad boys" may very well be doing the same thing, yet they are given the free pass? We live in a culture where men are supposed to pick up on ambivalent signals (eye contact, some minor initiation of interest by the woman) and then take the lead, but younger, inexperienced or not socially intelligent men have a very hard time picking up on who they have been signaled to approach, and who is not interested at all. In the absence of signals, Aspie-type men just assume everyone is a candidate if they are optimistic, or that no one is interested, if they are pessimists (and we have several here).

I totally understand (having been through the dating game, gotten married, and having some years of experience) the burden of having someone you are not attracted to try to force the relationship, and for sure, no woman should feel obligated to put out for a guy who is nice to them (nor should a man in a similar situation). However, women should understand that pretty much all men, nice or not, have the end goal of getting them in the sack, so it is unfair to single out nice guys as being especially creepy -- they just might be especially persistent, or harder to say no to.

I would say that it would be nice if women were more blunt about their intentions, positive or negative, regarding a guy, so that he can stop wasting both of their time and move on. I know this isn't the language women speak, as women tend to not like direct confrontation and would rather use more subtle hints and insinuation to make the same point, but unfortunately men, and Aspie men especially, do not speak that language.

I also suspect a lot of women don't like to burn any bridges or close any doors permanently, because who knows, maybe she will actually need that guy in the future, and in this way I think women are equally "user-ish" as men, if not more so.

billsmithglendale: I was NOT being accusatory to anyone here on WP. I too have tried the friends-first approach when I was a teenager and I tried it MANY times but the result was always the same: Fail. Being nice to someone and/or being their friend because you're attracted to them is just NOT going to make them feel the same way about you. You cannot *make* someone attracted to you; period. BTW, I too feel extremely irritated by the fact that most women hide their true intentions toward men but I dont know of any incentive to make them be more honest and direct.