The UCSB shooter--an Aspie with a rant against women
01 Aug 2014, 6:19 pm
If men don't ask you out, ask them out.
It's not something I would prefer to do but I've generally had to do it.
I have done in the past, but I've lost my confidence as I've got older, especially since they all knocked me back, which is hardly surprising because my social skills were a bit off when I was younger. I have problems connecting with people and it takes me a long time to feel comfortable with someone and I slowly realise that I like them, just when I think that there might be something there they start going out with someone else or move abroad. I'm like the Disney version of good luck chuck.
That's it! That's the AS experience! And it crosses gender lines. You have found the words to explain it!
Personal experience teaches us through many failed attempts that: "Others can approach a love interest without always getting rejected, but I can't. Things seem to work out for most people, but they never work out for me. Why?" That question--the "why" question--usually leads to one of two answers: 1) "It's the other person's fault. It's not fair" or 2) "It's my fault. I'm defective. I will never experience love. I am not worthy of love." Option 1 leads to anger, bitterness, hatred of the people who reject you. Option 2 leads to suicidal depression. Who wants to be alone for the rest of their life while simultaneously strongly desiring not to be alone? I can't think of a more depressing thought. Yet that is the reality of a lot people with AS. At least that is what I have experienced and that is the gist of a lot of the posts I have read here on wrongplanet.
I'm not saying it is impossible for people with AS to find love, but realistically, it is much, much, much more difficult. It's hard not to feel jaded or frustrated or so shell-shocked from negative experiences that you are no longer willing to try.
People without AS or some other condition that sharply limits ones social skills do not understand this experience because they are programmed to relate to each other and do it without much conscious effort. Just like I have no idea what it is like to live as a person who cannot walk. I don't know what their emotional world is like and I don't think to much about walking. I just do it because I can. Even after someone repeatedly explains it to me, I still can't fully grasp the experience because I don't live with it everyday.
Last edited by em_tsuj on 02 Aug 2014, 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Aug 2014, 9:41 am
I used to vacillate between Option 1 and Option 2. Now I realize and accept that I am not relationship material. It isn't that I can't get someone. I am just doubtful that it is worth all the effort and pain involved in trying to get and maintain a long-term relationship.
02 Aug 2014, 12:14 pm
I've been there and done that when it comes to relationships.
What i mean by that is that i've had a bit of a rollercoaster ride when it comes to girls. Personally speaking i too have had these feelings of powerlessness before, and i can see how they would drive a person to insanity. I know alot of us "Odd-Bods" often find it hard to gain our bearings when it comes to interactions with others, but to be honest, trying to force a relationship with someone in whom they find you incompatible is both impossible, on the count of the fact that once they make that decision, you will have to back off, or risk losing them for good, and if you manage to "fake it" and end up with someone you don't like, often the situation ends up being worse, as you're stuck with a person that you either want to leave, risking a crippling heartbreak, or stay with and be tormented by their incompatibility or misunderstanding, especially considering those with AS often find it difficult to deal with emotional response and empathy, and sometimes, our obesessions can get in the way of a relationship in some cases.
What i'm trying to say, is relationships aren't forced, unless a forced relationship is the model of an ideal relationship for that person.
If we break down the word, "Relationship" into "Relative" and "Companionship" it literally means, "Companionship on common terms", which means, a relationship forms when both parties agree to a set of predicates based upon the situation. In order to get a romantic relationship, you have to meet their prerequsites for what they consider to be a relationship. Now, if your standards as a person are set quite high in some areas (i.e, only going after pretty girls, or rich girls, or whatever), and the standards of those girls do not fall in to line with what you as a person are (which trust me, no amount of cologne can mask that), then a girl will simply keep you as an acquaintance, or in some cases, a friend. Cross that line without at least attempting to meet her standards, and she'll shoot you down. It's simple relational logic.
Now this is not me saying "Don't go for people that are 'too good' for you", because nobody is too good for anyone else. it all comes down to love languages. If you view the ideology of a relationship as simply a status symbol, or you view those of the opposite sex as simple objects for your own sexual enjoyment, you're thinking about love in the wrong way. Love is a concept in which you create by developing a friendship with a person, growing their trust, knowing their quirks, and sticking with them. Us guys and girls with AS find it hard to assess when it's the right time to make a move, but the trick is... to not make moves. Weird, right? The happiest relationships are those which flow on from really close friendships. It's perfectly reasonable to have standards, relational aspirations, and fetishes, but it's best to keep those down until you build trust in others, and the time is right to share those things with them.
Now, People say "There's someone out there for everyone" Because some people find Love in different ways. Humans need companionship, otherwise we wouldn't learn to talk, or read, or write, or do anything. Humans require nurturing and teaching, from peers, teachers, parents, and other leaders. There are some people, despite their sexual frustrations, that'll never fall in love, and as i say to people That is not a bad thing. Honestly, relationships, especially committed ones, take up a TON of your time. Imagine the time you can spend on other stuff. Sure love is great, but like everything in life, there are drawbacks, and there are positives.
In regards to this case however, i do believe this person has got it wrong about love. He claims to be a "Supreme Gentleman" and such. I'm going to take the same spin that Nathan Buckley (ADoseOfBuckley on YouTube) took on this article. He tried too many times to be forceful, he got rejected, didn't know how to deal with the emotion, and the swelling feeling inside of him was taken out on others. It's unacceptable for anyone to have to die for the sake of a person's mistakes, just because that person never "got laid", and no girls ever chose to be with him. It is up to the rest of the community to both learn from the mistakes this person made, and to also understand that love cannot be forced, it simply happens.
WantToHaveALife
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03 Aug 2014, 8:33 am
I've felt like that, but I tell myself that there is more to life than experiencing a relationship. I am sure that there are many people who really enjoy sky-diving and say that you haven't lived until you've experienced that. Well, I'm scared of heights so there is no way in hell I'm going sky-diving no matter how many people tell me that I'm missing out. I can find other interesting and rewarding things to do with my life.
It's the same with love. It's only one part of life. Not having that doesn't limit our ability to enjoy life. We just miss out on one aspect of it, but it's not the end of the world. There are so many great experiences for us as humans living on this amazing planet and we can all find our own things that make us happy. Music is my passion and I feel that it makes life trully rich. I also enjoy walks in the countryside.
03 Aug 2014, 7:55 pm
Tried making a project out of actually reading this full thread for some reason, considering it's gone on for so long without degenerating into slanging, and though it's obviously derailed most of the time from the original topic the conversation's generally stimulated me, tweaked my own thoughts a little and maybe above all I'm quite encouraged that posters haven't flipped out on each other. Maybe I've come to expect things to descend that way quickly by being too familiar with the likes of Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr. Any vaguely serious conversations that a few strangers are in on on those media and you really need to be careful. Hate it.
Started skimming 26 pages in but have read the last three. I honestly like the ways in which it's derailed. Lots of serious matters discussed in respectful ways that have benefited most of us involved...
Like seemingly 90% of the posters on this forum I'm an amusingly sorta-washed up no-luck bloke type. Last relationship ended aged 14, ie. kiddy stuff that hardly counts, was asked out online a few times in the following years but was never up for it, have had a handful of women I've hoped to land but became too doubtful of them despite obvious mutual attraction, have had interested men which were no more than flattering, have yearned for much more attractive, socially successful female friends, all the classics.
When I think of having a barren several years between sixth form and the end of university it is grim, but I don't reflect on it or sit in a pool of tears mentalising a timebomb. The only person I need to validate myself is myself. The idea of stopping on the summit of a hill and imagining What Could Be beside me is more hilariously daft than wistful. Going back to the analogy of bookshelves with one shelf empty, I reckon most shelves and volumes of my life are looking near-complete. Along with the nice little trinkets and clutter I keep poking out. If a relationship comes into that then it'll take some searching, rearrangement and getting rid of a few things but it'll fit somehow, and it still probably won't fill the whole bookshelf up. Oh well!
I reckon it takes a bit of time and effort to un-learn the feeling that perpetual singles/virgins are failures and the intellectual/emotional halves to accepting that probably don't come simultaneously. To sincerely reject it. The shooter was broken from an early age and seemed to cling onto every one of the worst western social beliefs: being sexually experienced is part of manhood (especially if it's with a rich, buxom blonde), being filthy rich is part of manhood, interracial relationships are evil, people of colour are less worthy of pleasure and power... misogynistic beliefs that also intersected with racism, economic libertarian values... this deeply ugly intersection. A relationship might've stalled or stopped his murdering but it wouldn't've pacified the disgusting rage in him and would've been no trade-off for the awfulness that happened.
As for the AS diagnosis. Never seen it and I've read up on this here and there to an extent that disturbs me. Adam Lanza (of Sandy Hook) has it mentioned of him many times but Elliott Rodger not at all. To a layman he appears more mentally ill than impaired.
I've been wavecannon, and this has been me testing the waters of this thread. I know I'm treading tired old ground but here I am. Been enjoying the discussions on here so thanks to the likes of The Face of Boo, tarantella64, DW a mom etc etc etc for refreshing perspectives.
The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Aug 2014, 2:02 am
What i mean by that is that i've had a bit of a rollercoaster ride when it comes to girls. Personally speaking i too have had these feelings of powerlessness before, and i can see how they would drive a person to insanity. I know alot of us "Odd-Bods" often find it hard to gain our bearings when it comes to interactions with others, but to be honest, trying to force a relationship with someone in whom they find you incompatible is both impossible, on the count of the fact that once they make that decision, you will have to back off, or risk losing them for good, and if you manage to "fake it" and end up with someone you don't like, often the situation ends up being worse, as you're stuck with a person that you either want to leave, risking a crippling heartbreak, or stay with and be tormented by their incompatibility or misunderstanding, especially considering those with AS often find it difficult to deal with emotional response and empathy, and sometimes, our obesessions can get in the way of a relationship in some cases.
What i'm trying to say, is relationships aren't forced, unless a forced relationship is the model of an ideal relationship for that person.
If we break down the word, "Relationship" into "Relative" and "Companionship" it literally means, "Companionship on common terms", which means, a relationship forms when both parties agree to a set of predicates based upon the situation. In order to get a romantic relationship, you have to meet their prerequsites for what they consider to be a relationship. Now, if your standards as a person are set quite high in some areas (i.e, only going after pretty girls, or rich girls, or whatever), and the standards of those girls do not fall in to line with what you as a person are (which trust me, no amount of cologne can mask that), then a girl will simply keep you as an acquaintance, or in some cases, a friend. Cross that line without at least attempting to meet her standards, and she'll shoot you down. It's simple relational logic.
Now this is not me saying "Don't go for people that are 'too good' for you", because nobody is too good for anyone else. it all comes down to love languages. If you view the ideology of a relationship as simply a status symbol, or you view those of the opposite sex as simple objects for your own sexual enjoyment, you're thinking about love in the wrong way. Love is a concept in which you create by developing a friendship with a person, growing their trust, knowing their quirks, and sticking with them. Us guys and girls with AS find it hard to assess when it's the right time to make a move, but the trick is... to not make moves. Weird, right? The happiest relationships are those which flow on from really close friendships. It's perfectly reasonable to have standards, relational aspirations, and fetishes, but it's best to keep those down until you build trust in others, and the time is right to share those things with them.
Now, People say "There's someone out there for everyone" Because some people find Love in different ways. Humans need companionship, otherwise we wouldn't learn to talk, or read, or write, or do anything. Humans require nurturing and teaching, from peers, teachers, parents, and other leaders. There are some people, despite their sexual frustrations, that'll never fall in love, and as i say to people That is not a bad thing. Honestly, relationships, especially committed ones, take up a TON of your time. Imagine the time you can spend on other stuff. Sure love is great, but like everything in life, there are drawbacks, and there are positives.
In regards to this case however, i do believe this person has got it wrong about love. He claims to be a "Supreme Gentleman" and such. I'm going to take the same spin that Nathan Buckley (ADoseOfBuckley on YouTube) took on this article. He tried too many times to be forceful, he got rejected, didn't know how to deal with the emotion, and the swelling feeling inside of him was taken out on others. It's unacceptable for anyone to have to die for the sake of a person's mistakes, just because that person never "got laid", and no girls ever chose to be with him. It is up to the rest of the community to both learn from the mistakes this person made, and to also understand that love cannot be forced, it simply happens.
This is true, but I am not sure about the 'move' part, well in most cases I've witnessed: The girl gives obvious signs to the guy (constant contact, flirting) and tons of verbal hints, in no time you see them becoming couples, my guy friends told me that it's often the girls made it so easy for them to take a move to the next step, I recall one "She asked me what she means for me", other examples of guys telling me that they were being very obvious in their behaviors. What all these stories have in common though is it usually happen fast, like in the first couple of months of the friendships.
And I did live this experience, I was totally aware whom of my female friends who had initially admired and interested in me, like that one girl I met in a trip, she constantly texting me, and sending "good morning"/"good night" every day, and constantly asking when to meet again and involve you in her outing with friends, introducing you.....etc. but I didn't make a move because she's too religious, long story. This scenario happened like 3 times, and they were always very obvious.
WP and other sites, are all full of crappy theories about signs, nonverbal stuff, pua crap.....bla bla , reality is, that when a girl is interested in you, she'll let you know in some way or another, even with your AS you'll know it unless you're completely dumb. You'll be like "my god, she does like me", If you're going wondering and questioning "does she like me?" then chances are high that it's one of the cases that the girl is just simply being flirty but not interested or you being delusional, second guessing is often a bad sign.
The key is, how to make yourself more interesting/attracting and acquiring traits which are generally desirable.
04 Aug 2014, 3:57 am
No, you won't necessarily know it, or I'm completely dumb. The only way I would of known is if she directly asked me on a date, verbally because I wouldn't of known what any of the verbal hints, non-verbal signals were or meant. And they're still expecting the guy to make a move, regardless of how many "hints" they give you.
The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Aug 2014, 4:09 am
No, you won't necessarily know it, or I'm completely dumb. The only way I would of known is if she directly asked me on a date, verbally because I wouldn't of known what any of the verbal hints, non-verbal signals were or meant. And they're still expecting the guy to make a move, regardless of how many "hints" they give you.
You would know if it had happened and you're not dumb, and a lot of these verbal 'hints' are often announcement-like of interest. And the girls I was talking about even having bit shy personalities.
04 Aug 2014, 4:34 am
No, you won't necessarily know it, or I'm completely dumb. The only way I would of known is if she directly asked me on a date, verbally because I wouldn't of known what any of the verbal hints, non-verbal signals were or meant. And they're still expecting the guy to make a move, regardless of how many "hints" they give you.
You would know if it had happened and you're not dumb, and a lot of these verbal 'hints' are often announcement-like of interest. And the girls I was talking about even having bit shy personalities.
I might know if it happened to me today but I did't know when I was in high school or even a few years ago while I was studying at university. There was a girl who I met at Engelbrecht Summer school in 2006, when I was in the Drakensburg for 2 weeks, who seemed to show some interest right from when I met her, giving me some verbal hints and even looking for me later on at the SAIP conference in Cape Town when I presented my poster for my MSc work, a few months later. The problem is, I didn't act on it. The other time was in High School when someone tried to get my attention by sending me an unsigned Valentine's day card, I never found out who it was from (though I now suspect who it might of been from and I've recently found her again on Facebook, only in the last week or so but unfortunately that happened about 17 years ago and it's long gone). So, even when I did have an idea that someone might be interested, I didn't know how to act on it but that Valentine's thing I completely missed. I couldn't tell who it was from, at least at the time.
The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Aug 2014, 5:00 am
No, you won't necessarily know it, or I'm completely dumb. The only way I would of known is if she directly asked me on a date, verbally because I wouldn't of known what any of the verbal hints, non-verbal signals were or meant. And they're still expecting the guy to make a move, regardless of how many "hints" they give you.
You would know if it had happened and you're not dumb, and a lot of these verbal 'hints' are often announcement-like of interest. And the girls I was talking about even having bit shy personalities.
I might know if it happened to me today but I did't know when I was in high school or even a few years ago while I was studying at university. There was a girl who I met at Engelbrecht Summer school in 2006, when I was in the Drakensburg for 2 weeks, who seemed to show some interest right from when I met her, giving me some verbal hints and even looking for me later on at the SAIP conference in Cape Town when I presented my poster for my MSc work, a few months later. The problem is, I didn't act on it. The other time was in High School when someone tried to get my attention by sending me an unsigned Valentine's day card, I never found out who it was from (though I now suspect who it might of been from and I've recently found her again on Facebook, only in the last week or so but unfortunately that happened about 17 years ago and it's long gone).
So see, you can know, you are not clueless as you think so, and no you are older and wise. The lack of act was a problem of mine too; often as a result of over-thinking and my incline of not taking risks.
The girl I met in the trip clicked well with me, and again from the moment we met (and still close friend), we weren't formally bf/gf but she was introducing me to her friends all the time, and so one time I thought of introducing her to my friends(a couple, my best friend and his wife) - who happen to be Christians- in a restaurant meetup in a city she likes, she said she would go if they don't order alcohol (muslim faith prohibits sharing meal with drinkers) - even tho I was sure that they never drink on a lunch this put me off, and foreseen that she won't be compatible with me, I didn't say that to her but slowly I've started to contact her less often, turning the whole thing totally platonic. I am not sure if this was the wise thing to do, as she was aware of my atheism and found out later that she does have christian friends herself, I thought I took a wise decision back then maybe I wasn't being much understanding (again, over-thinking of something that perhaps could have been easily solvable) and kinda regret it.
WantToHaveALife
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04 Aug 2014, 3:02 pm
this fight scene from this movie, I feel like this guy when really pissed off and angry at life and society, reality in general for being the way it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKygTJ-F-1k
The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2014, 1:55 am
Your anecdotal evidence indicates that there's some truth in the Alpha male theory in pua culture.
Okcupid showed that women find only 20% of men as above average (looks wise only) and the rest as significantly less than average.
A majority of women find a minority of men attractive...yes, sounds pretty much Alpha-thing to me, this whole alpha-thing in pua had been theorized based on this very observation that you are talking about, Tarantella.
