When Dating..

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After giving this some thought, I would have to say that it is not cheating. Someone watching porn, at worst, would just be an exhibitionist, not a cheater.

Adjusted..

Thanks for clearing that up.

I have been away from this for a while, so I am trying to get back into the mind set. My problem is, I don't have an issue with porn. At all. But I am trying to appreciate the feelings of people who do. I have absolutely enjoyed porn and used it many, many times for masterbation.

As for the guys who are opposed to porn being liars-- these men have no reason to lie to me about it. They aren't in relationships wtih me and at least one of them felt like he was "not manly" because he did think it was degrading. I am not sure why that makes him a liar. It means he has a different opinion and different feelings on the topic. Everyone is entitled to that.

I am a very social person and most of my friends are men. That can make any guy feel insecure at times. No, I am not going to give up all my guy friends, but I can do certain things to make it more comfortable for men I am am with. I don't need to be alone at a house with these guys. I can let my bf get to know them. I can be totally open about it. I would never just tell him to "get over it" because it is his insecurity. I will do whatever I can to make him feel more secure.

I think its the same here. The women and men I know that do have issues with porn don't have issues with masterbating. I don't see the insecurity of these people as something to be left alone and dealt with on their own. Their partners can absolutely do things to make them feel more secure and can be understanding on what makes them insecure. In these instances, giving up masterbating isn't the answer. It's finding another way to get there that doesn't make your partner feel like crap. I don't see anything wrong with that.

My bf has AS. He isn't very verbal about his feelings at all. Sometimes, it makes me feel insecure. When I need to hear it more, I tell him. Sometimes he still can't get the words out. HOWEVER, I woke up this morning to a note taped to my bathroom mirror telling me he loves me and hopes I slept well last night. There was also a little "coupon" beneath it for full body oil massage Just because its hard for him to be open emotionally, doesn't mean there aren't ways he can show me. He could just say "well, I am not wired that way," and leave it at that. But he doesn't. He knows its important to me, so he tries.

Taking your partner's feelings into account is HUGE and necessary. No matter what the issue happens to be (porn, opposite sex friends, emotional needs, etc), I believe its important to respect and acknowledge the feelings of your partner. I just don't see porn any differently.

Then in that light, our impressions aren't so different. My initial rants were fueled on the impression that you were under-stating a prejudice against porn-users. With that said, it wasn't the porn that I was defending, it was the prejudice I was attacking, along with the side-baggage such a mindset would carry, such as imposing morals, etc.

In regards to porn, insecurity and compromise, yeah, I agree. But it's easy to take your thought too far, in my opinion. Supposedly, simply removing porn from the picture isn't a big deal, particularly since your partners emotional well-being is so important, and partly at stake. The big catch is that this could frame the insecure person fully within the spotlight of victimhood, where their standpoint becomes the binary "right side to be on." But it's really not that simple.

As I mentioned before, people can get offended very easily... sometimes too easy. When one only ever tiptoes around another, then the other gets used to only the lightest footsteps, and imbalance grows. Porn is just one potential issue among many, when it comes to finding the right balance of give and take. Perhaps this is simply my own experience-based bias, but when I see something akin to a white-hot ban on porn, it makes me suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg.

For example, my father confides in me occasionally with his marriage (she is not my mother). One day he was clickin around the net randomly, reading and following links. And then he saw a banner with some boobs or something. And, unlike most other times, he went and clicked it. Although he, like any other straight guy, likes seeing pretty and evocative women, he's not particularly a porn kind of guy - Maybe he woulda been when he was younger, but not really any more. Not 3 seconds from arriving at the link's front-page, his wife walked in and saw it.

"...OH, I SEE. SO I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH," and she walks out in a huff, and gives him hell for the rest of the night. Tension begets tension, and it rises in various ways throughout the week, leading up to un-related fights that strain the marriage. The fights may not have been porn related(AFAIK), but clearly it impacted her in a big way, and pushed them into a downward spiral.... In large part, derived from what was just a mis-representative fluke.
He did not deserve that.

I see this example as rather prototypical; Not particularly 'specialized' to those two individuals, but instead more of a stereotypical moment in many peoples' marriages, as it relates to porn. I can understand why it would make women uncomfortable, I really do, but it doesn't need to make women that uncomfortable. And I don't think it should. Should, for instance, my father take measures to help his wife feel more secure? In general, absolutely! But is her depth of insecurity his fault? NO, a hundred-times, no. Yet the issue is so easy to cast in black & white, the wife as the victim, that the easy 'solution' defaults to the porn-ban. This gives fuel to the notion that the insecure-woman is vindicated, that her hypersensitivity is not a problem. It fuels the notion that more subjects that infringe upon her emotional state in this way are similarly situations that demand the man to compromise. This behavior, to my mind, promotes an endless cycle of tip-toeing when perhaps whats called for is to address the root issue in the insecure woman's hypersensitivity.

So, porn really is the scapegoat; It's the visible issue that casts the shadow of the larger problem. If not for this shadow, then screw porn, ban it in the household, for all I care. There's plenty of good reasons to do it. .....So long as there's real balance and truly equal compromise. Which, I know, is actually quite difficult and demanding to achieve.

That (bolded) reaction is precisely the problem with vilifying what is so often completely harmless behavior: it supports the foolish notion that some women embrace - they should be the "be all" and "end all" of their man's sexual stimulation. And when they find out they're not (because none of us are), they go all ape-shiz over it and punish the guy....lay on the guilt, pour on the shame, mete out the disgust. It's so ridiculous. All that negative feedback is not going to make him stop looking, it's not going to make him stop wanting to look. It's going to make his hide his behavior, cut off what could be healthy communication about sexuality and sexual interests/needs, and commence the build-up of resentment. Good luck with that.

Exactly.
And just as my penis cannot be as rad as a kickass vibrator, nor can a wife live up to the fantasy of an anonymous porn star, who can fulfill every fantasy on demand without obligation.
It simply isn't possible. So just as a toy shouldn't overly offend a husband, neither should porn overly offend a wife.

*edit, as for whether your friends occasionally look at porn or not, who knows, maybe they're chaste as a priest... Wait... bad analogy. Whatever, moving on. Maybe their sex life satisfies them utterly, who knows. And that'd be awesome. But if a guy doesn't have a regular sex life, for instance, and they have access to the internet, it's a pretty safe bet that they're lying about porn. Sure, there's exceptions, like low libido, or an unshakable will to not masterbate(whoa!), but they are exceptions. Men experience arousal, and the desire for sex, in a way that's intrinsically different from women. Unless they've somehow gotten used to living without sex or masturbation, and living with that constant pressure (because that's what it feels like), then they're going to feel a profound urge to get it out of their system so they can better concentrate on the rest of life. This really is a huge factor.

Sure, sometimes its this. But SOMETIMES women are offended by it because their men don't ever talk about their sexuality-- and its like using for someone/something else and being unwilling to share their desires with them. I know with my bf now, it took a lot to get him to tell me what he wants sexually. So when men don't share their wants and desires and go directly to porn, I can absolutely understand how a woman would be offended.

If someone IS offended, I still think that conversation and reassurance is required on the partner's end, unless the intent is to offend.

Basically agreed, but I'd replace 'offended' with 'let down'.
I think we all agree of the need for everyone to open up and communicate fully. In the case where a guy isn't opening up, then he needs to uphold his end. In the case where a woman is getting overly-sensitive, then she needs to address her issue internally. Either way, it seems that porn isn't the real problem, here.

That said, expectations have still got to be managed... It's hard for a woman to compete with porn. And once a guy has found extra gratification in porn, there's kinda no going back. You can remove it from the household and the guy's life, but the thoughts and impulses are still seared into him. A couple's sex life can still be great, but it's not easy to fully overshadow the potential in porn. One can only do the best they can, and if that doesn't exceed kink.com, one really shouldn't feel that bad (let alone offended) about it.

Okay, I admit I was going to make a joke here, but you know, I think this is actually a really profound part of the argument. There is such a difference between fantasy (porn/masturbation) and the reality of being with another person. When I'm not dating someone, it's not the orgasms I miss (cause of, you know, the kickass thing). It's the kissing and the hugging and the companionship - the real life, emotional and physical aspects of the relationship.

So it's not that any guy's penis is or isn't as fabulous as a great vibe - it's that his penis is attached to him - all the wonderful parts of him: the way he looks, smells, sounds, laughs, feels. It's not that your woman has porn star t*ts or no cellulite or is as flexible as a gymnast - it's that she's real and she's there and she's yours. Porn/masturbation serves it's purpose (as Sound so deftly described) - I kinda think it actually enhances an individual's sexuality - but it's not a substitute for emotional and physical intimacy with another person. Porn/masturbation does not meet the same needs that real emotional and physical intimacy, so there's really no reason to feel threatened or offended by the needs it does meet.

Sometimes people want all of their partner's sexual energy focused on them, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's just something you should really figure out early in a relationship, before it can cause some serious problems.

(Plus, I have to admit that masturbating with a partner there to talk me through it, and hold me close, it's much better than anything I could get from a computer. It just depends on the person.)

Heh, if I'm a bit crass, apologies. Sometimes I go a little over the top. Was all in the pursuit of humor, more or less.

And yeah, the vibrator thing was a very course comparison to a very nuanced issue, where there's obviously more to it than just 'getting off.'

I agree with you, Michelle.

I'm really dumbfounded by the amount of people that don't think of their partners as part of them. They put their own needs, impulses and desires above their partners' when it should be the other way around.

In a relationship, everyone wants to feel understood, to feel comfort in that relationship and to feel secure in that relationship, and everyone is deserving of these things. Both partners have to address these needs that they both share. If both partners sacrificed self and focused on their partner, both partners' needs would be met by each other, completely.

People use the excuse that looking at those images upon one's impulses is perfectly natural and necessary for fulfillment; however, they overlook the most basic human necessities, and those necessities are the need for a whole, loving, honest and close relationship with their partner. The one and only person in the whole world with whom they share such a unique relationship with.

With such a close relationship, the desire to look at other people shouldn't even be an issue at all, but if it is an issue, it's not right to put your own issues on your partner and make them feel as if it's their fault for making you act the way you do--only you can decide what actions you take--and that's where communication comes in.

With ongoing communication and love, anything can be overcome. If you both have the mind set to want to please each other.

So using your own argument, it's not right to put your issues with porn on your partner - by demanding that they conform to your idea that the desire to look at other people is inappropriate? And if you want to ensure that your partner is free to masturbate in a way that is most enjoyable for him/her, then I guess an individual's aversion to porn as a masturbatory aid can be overcome with ongoing communication and love, right?

I'm sorry, but your logic regarding why people look at porn is flawed. The desire to look at other people is human nature, even more so for men. If you understand that fact, then you'll realize that the desire to look at other people is not a measure of how close your relationship is - it's verification that you've married within your species.

Additionally, masturbation is a personal, private activity. Marriage or an exclusive relationship does not imply that you've signed your genitals - or your thoughts - over to your partner. Any person should not require their partner's approval regarding how they masturbate.

Gah. /facepalm.

This is ironic.

This is also ironic..

If, by 'people' you mean those discussing this topic at great detail, then no, you are misreading. Porn is not being defended as necessary for fulfillment, nor that it's even natural(although the impulse is natural).

Although such a relationship is vaunted and desired, and is the goal in this entire discussion, it's not a human necessity. But I suppose that's nitpicking. I guess I just don't have much patience for rhetoric composed of feelgood generalities at the expense of the details, which we've been taking great pains to hash out within this thread.

Assuming one reads all the text in this thread, and does not forget what's been typed, we're very clearly not overlooking the needs of the partner, from either perspective. The entire point of this discussion is about the balance and compromise from either side of this issue. Your ham-fisted, over-simplified, spurious mis-portrayal is extremely frustrating.

Shouldn't, I'll agree. But unfortunately we live in this place called reality, where this happens regularly even despite the best, most fulfilling, most trusting, most equal, best intentioned, most respectful relationships.

Once again, this is ironic.

That's a very nice platitude, combined with a convenient ignorance of the other side of the issue. Score!

Now you're probably curious - Whats so ironic?
It's how half the thread seems to have flown right over your head, in failing to see that your 'arguments' fit ever so nicely on the opposite side of the issue as well.

In imagining that the porn is an emotional imposition on the self-conscious partner, you fail to see that the condemnation, guilt, and morals imposed by an overly-sensitive partner is an equally unfair, self-centered imposition, that is inconsiderate of the other persons emotions.

And I'm not talking about "Oh, wah wah, they can't look at porn." No. I don't care about that, this could conceivably be any topic that inflames your sense of jealousy.
I'm talking about someone like you saying "**I** am the victim here, TEND TO ME," when in reality the one victimizing you is you. Not the porn, and most certainly not the porn-viewing partner. It's sprouting up an issue that didn't naturally exist, and then coming up with a task to arbitrarily make you feel better, nevermind that your partner didn't have anything to do with it from the start.

By categorically deeming porn an offense to a relationship, you are taking the concept of 'compromise' and 'fairness' and twisting it to serve yourself at your partner's expense by forcing them to accommodate your view of the issue you bring upon yourself. ...While meanwhile bludgeoning them with your personal morality! That is not compromise, that's an imperious, self-absorbed, unilateral demand.
What else are you going to demand 'compromise' on? What exactly have you done to compromise?

.... Okay, breathe, Miles, breathe.....

Alright, backing up....
I went over-the-top in response to your over-simplification.

But nominally, if porn is making a partner self-conscious, and jealous, then in most practical cases, yeah, there's a good chance that the porn should go away.

.....But it also means that the self-conscious person HAS A PROBLEM, and it's possibly a bigger problem than the porn. Left ignored, the issue can seep into other areas of a relationship, and turn it utterly sour, causing far more damage than the porn-induced self-consciousness and jealousy.

Debate, debate.

I feel that your responses are very negative (and perhaps you feel that way about mine). I did expect responses such as from you two, however. That is why i posted, because i feel this topic is very one-sided and i wanted to give my support for the other side.

Though i know you'll probably say it's not one-sided and point out to me all of the ways you're considering all sides. But i keep seeing you repeat the same points over and over again as if to drill it into peoples' heads that you are definitely right. And i find most of your opinions to be of common accord amongst humans in general. Again, that is why i posted.

I don't wish to debate with you, but i can say that i'm not going to change my position of thought on the matter (as i know you will not either); not because i'm closed-minded, but because i believe all things can be worked out and overcome through love and understanding.

This view is not only about this topic alone, but any problems a couple may encounter. Rather than seeing problems as just superfluous intrusions, i prefer to see them as a lack of something that can easily be added to solve the problem. And i believe what lacks, to some degree at least, is understanding and love.